Idea: Tesla could limit charge to 80% when a location is extremely busy

[Daniel in SD]

No, it's certainly not, and Baker City is probably not going to be full any time in the next few years either. I was somewhat expressing my distaste for such absolute thinking that doesn't consider different scenarios and regions. My description, though, is an example of why it would be bothersome of Tesla naively institutes some policy like that 80% limit across the whole country, without taking into account the large variance there is in fullness or site spacing. I would be pissed like @MorrisonHiker as well, if they did that where the places I charge are never full and don't have other options within driving distance.

I'm actually somewhat in favor of the 80% thing in those kinds of areas in Cali that do have several other Supercharger sites within 30-50 miles around.

The screen shot specifically says the 80% limit is for congested superchargers. I'm sure it will be like idle fees, it will only apply at congested superchargers.

 

[markb1]

Surge pricing! I think that's actually the most rational solution but I think it would be incredibly unpopular.
Lines are the worst way to ration scarce resources.

I think that's totally the best idea. If you really want more than 80% at a congested supercharger, you just have to pay an extra fee. But more than just general unpopularity, the owners with unlimited free supercharging should rightfully expect that to not apply to them. (Unlimited free supercharging was great marketing, but limited free supercharging would have made much more sense!)

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I was referring to @Rocky_H situation. The situation you're talking about is exactly the type of situation where the 80% limit would save huge amounts of time. If you've got a bunch of people driving around locally then there's no reason to charge to more than 80% and you could get a lot more use out of the supercharger by limiting it to 80%. Maybe the car could give people some idea of when the supercharger is not congested so they could top up to 100% when it's not busy.

I think that the vast majority were probably limiting themselves to less than 80% as they were just driving in various loops around Custer. It was a very social event so most drivers were out talking to others while charging and would move their cars as soon as possible and head out on another road trip around the area.

I only charged above 80% because I needed to drive over 215 miles across SD and western NE after leaving the rally (and didn't want to waste an extra two hours and drive over 300 miles instead). Those who were leaving Custer and continuing their trips via I-90 or I-25 wouldn't have needed to charge as much as those of use who were bridging the gap between Supercharger interstate routes.

 

[JeffnReno]

I look forward to the day when BEVs are so prevalent that destination chargers are available for most guest staying overnight in commonly touristed areas so the need to supercharge while visiting those areas will be greatly diminished. I get the travel needs for supercharging and the abuse of locals that could choose home charging but get free supercharging. What bothers me is when I reach my destination and my only option while visiting might be a supercharger so I'm limited to whatever the demands are for that location with the only choice being, don't go there or put up with congested charging availability. Could you imagine if all theme parks were so populated with destination charging spaces that it wouldn't even matter if many were ICEd and you knew at the end of your days visit you would be leaving with a full charge? Never hurts to dream anyway.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I think that the vast majority were probably limiting themselves to less than 80% as they were just driving in various loops around Custer. It was a very social event so most drivers were out talking to others while charging and would move their cars as soon as possible and head out on another road trip around the area.

I only charged above 80% because I needed to drive over 215 miles across SD and western NE after leaving the rally (and didn't want to waste an extra two hours and drive over 300 miles instead). Those who were leaving Custer and continuing their trips via I-90 or I-25 wouldn't have needed to charge as much as those of use who were bridging the gap between Supercharger interstate routes.

Definitely sounds like surge pricing would have helped a lot with congestion issues. People who didn't need the charge would charge to 50% and then be on their way while you would be able to charge to 100%. Unfortunately I don't think that's a realistic solution given all the people with FUSC and people's general dislike of market based solutions.
Tesla has all the data on supercharger utilization and where people are going so I hope they'll implement a system that makes everyone better off. Superchargers are very expensive to build and maintain so it makes sense to use them as efficiently as possible.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Definitely sounds like surge pricing would have helped a lot with congestion issues. People who didn't need the charge would charge to 50% and then be on their way while you would be able to charge to 100%. Unfortunately I don't think that's a realistic solution given all the people with FUSC and people's general dislike of market based solutions.
Tesla has all the data on supercharger utilization and where people are going so I hope they'll implement a system that makes everyone better off. Superchargers are very expensive to build and maintain so it makes sense to use them as efficiently as possible.

Another example I've brought up in the past: Gothenburg, NE to Murdo, SD is a 245 mile direct trip. When charged close to 100%, it can be done in an S 90D. If not allowed to charge above 80% along the way, the trip could jump up to 610 miles (via WY) or up to 646 miles (via IA).

There are many parts of the country where an arbitrary 80% rule wouldn't be fair. Fortunately, these locations usually aren't congested. Even if they are congested, such as during the 2017 total eclipse, limiting someone to 80% could prevent them from reaching their destination or require them to drive hundreds of miles out of the way. It seems more energy efficient to allow them to spend a few more minutes charging so they can take a more direct route.

Maybe instead of surge pricing, they could set up the system allowing drivers to indicate if they are charging for long distance and the route they will be taking. If that car needs 90% or 100%, perhaps a message could be sent to other cars charging or waiting to charge, explaining the need to charge longer. Then again, such a system would be ripe for abuse as anyone could just say they were driving long distance. I suppose a lower tech solution would be for the driver to put a "Murdo, SD or BUST!" sign in the window...or to get out and actually talk with other drivers and let them know that they really need the charge. I think I've talked with drivers at nearly every Supercharger I've stopped at, at least when there were actually other drivers there to talk to!

 

[Watts_Up]

The situation you're talking about is exactly the type of situation where the 80% limit would save huge amounts of time.
If you've got a bunch of people driving around locally then there's no reason to charge to more than 80%
and you could get a lot more use out of the supercharger by limiting it to 80%.
Maybe the car could give people some idea of when the supercharger is not congested
so they could top up to 100% when it's not busy.

There is certainly an education needed when preparing for a trip.

When travelling on a long distance, since the charging time ratio starts to decrease above 60%
it is better to make several stops to save time overall.

However I noticed that the Tesla Map inside the car when selecting an itinerary
don't let you to optimize the total travel duration,
and seems to display the minimum number Supercharger stops.

I wish this option was available, like when using A Better Route Planner.

 

[SageBrush]

I'd be curious if someone can post a realistic scenario where one would have to charge over 80%.

Ohmman mentioned his Model X with a trailer

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Ohmman mentioned his Model X with a trailer

So concise!

 

[Daniel in SD]

Ohmman mentioned his Model X with a trailer

As long as Tesla's algorithm is good for detecting congestion it seems like waiting until the supercharger is no longer congested to charge above 80% would be the way to go. There are many other options other than supercharging as well, destination chargers, public chargers, RV parks.
Another thing to keep in mind that if you can get somewhere with 100%-10% discharge at 65mph then you should easily be able to get there with a 80%-10% discharge by driving at 55mph. The minimum speed limit on interstate highways is 45mph.

 

[Rocky_H]

The screen shot specifically says the 80% limit is for congested superchargers. I'm sure it will be like idle fees, it will only apply at congested superchargers.

Uh huh. Like idle fees.

As long as Tesla's algorithm is good for detecting congestion

Therein lies the potential problem. Have you seen this 5 page thread of many people being charged idle fees when they are at stations that are less than half full, in violation of Tesla's own published policy? Sometimes these were when they were the only car there! And calls to Tesla support just say that their database shows the site being full. I could see a similar issue with them having a policy like that based in incorrect data.
Idle fee at empty Supercharger?

 

[markb1]

Uh huh. Like idle fees.

Therein lies the potential problem. Have you seen this 5 page thread of many people being charged idle fees when they are at stations that are less than half full, in violation of Tesla's own published policy? Sometimes these were when they were the only car there! And calls to Tesla support just say that their database shows the site being full. I could see a similar issue with them having a policy like that based in incorrect data.
Idle fee at empty Supercharger?

Seems like a fixable problem.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Seems like a fixable problem.

Yep. Use the cameras and neural nets to see how many other cars are at the supercharger!
Tesla also seems to be incapable of recognizing broken stalls even with their industry leading neural net technology. Maybe if a stall hasn't been used in hours, yet every other stall has been in continuous use, then that stall is broken? I guess artificial intelligence has not yet advanced to that point yet.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You misunderstood. It’s not wasted time if I’m eating dinner and charging close to 100%
It IS wasted time if I have to rush through dinner because my car is no longer charging and then stop and do nothing to charge my car again just to make it home

Here are the two scenarios as I see it:

Scenario A (the way things are now)
You have to wait 20 minutes for an open supercharger spot.
You get to have dinner and leave with a full charge and drive directly home.

Scenario B (Tesla limits charging to 80% at congested superchargers)
You pull right in and start charging. Here you've saved 20 minutes!
You have to leave in the middle of dinner to move your car.
You have to stop on the way home.
Everyone else doesn't have to wait 20 minutes for a supercharger spot (that's a huge number of people saving 20 minutes of time!).

I admit that you might be slightly worse off, though personally I find sitting in my car waiting for a stall way more annoying than having to move it after it's done.

 

[ljbad4life]

There seems to be very convoluted solutions to a simple problem. There are a couple solutions that are realistic and non-retaliatory
.
1)Upgrade all congested superchargers to v3 so people charge quicker. Of course there will be the outlier that charges above 80%. Even in a location of 4 stalls, it would still move 25% more cars through it.
2)build more superchargers
3)build a CCS quick charge adapter
4)build a chademo adapter for the Model 3 and model Y
5)Get more hotels/tourists spots destination chargers

Doing any combination of the solution above would greatly impact congestion instead of fining a small group back into ICE cars

 

[SageBrush]

1)Upgrade all congested superchargers to v3 so people charge quicker. Of course there will be the outlier that charges above 80%. Even in a location of 4 stalls, it would still move 25% more cars through it.
2)build more superchargers

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but superchargers are expensive.

 

[kellymc]

I'd like a count down clock built into the supercharger - here in CA many stations have signs saying 40 minute limit for charging. Many people ignore this and sit on the charger much longer. If there was a count down clock, the charger would stop @40 minutes, then back in line if you need 100%

 

[SageBrush]

I've yet to sit at a Supercharger more than 20 minutes, but this is a Model 3 that is not towing. As the fraction of cars charging are more like mine and less Model X and other high consumption cars the problem will be mitigated. We might even end up with one station that allows extended time charging and the others limited to ~ 30 minutes.

Rather like supermarkets that have lines for customers with only a few items.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I've yet to sit at a Supercharger more than 20 minutes, but this is a Model 3 that is not towing. As the fraction of cars charging are more like mine and less Model X and other high consumption cars the problem will be mitigated. We might even end up with one station that allows extended time charging and the others limited to ~ 30 minutes.

Rather like supermarkets that have lines for customers with only a few items.

I think this is the best idea come up with here. Have one station that allows charging above 80%. Simple. Now where do I send the suggestion to Tesla?
You could pair the 100% station with one that limits to 60% for maximum efficiency.
V3 Superchargers will do very little to help congestion caused by people charging over 80%. Seems like the max charge on V3 Superchargers should actually be about 50%.

 

[ljbad4life]

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but superchargers are expensive.

wow i had no idea! Please call Elon directly and inform him. Cancel super charger v3. Can he still get back all the money for the giga factory??

Sorry to inform you that supercharger account for a tiny fraction of Tesla's budget in the USA and this point.