If Tesla Needs a little cash, add Ludicrous mode to existing Model 3 Performance

[PhaseWhite]

I think they should offer an upgrade on the AWD models. Providing a paid upgrade would make some AWD owners happy for the opportunity and would bring in some more cash. They will have to be careful to position it correctly so as not to piss off existing P3D owners. Perhaps a 5k upgrade option to bring the 0-60 down to 3.8s with an OTA update.

And if possible I think a Ludicrous option on the P3D that brings 0-60 down to 3.0 seconds (with more power on the highway) for another 5k would be tempting. *There's definitely no way 2.6 is possible*

If the limit is the motors, then this doesn't make sense since that would cause expensive warranty failures, but if the limit is the battery, then higher discharge will likely increase warranty issues but not nearly as fast or as severe, perhaps Tesla can calculate how much they'd have to charge based on estimate increased warranty liability.

 

[EVDRVN]

do we know for a fact the motors are maxed? that just made me very sad... i've been hoping for a future software upgrade.

The P motors not the RWD but those are not balanced parts supposedly.

 

[EVDRVN]

I think they should offer an upgrade on the AWD models. Providing a paid upgrade would make some AWD owners happy for the opportunity and would bring in some more cash. They will have to be careful to position it correctly so as not to piss off existing P3D owners. Perhaps a 5k upgrade option to bring the 0-60 down to 3.8s with an OTA update.

And if possible I think a Ludicrous option on the P3D that brings 0-60 down to 3.0 seconds (with more power on the highway) for another 5k would be tempting. *There's definitely no way 2.6 is possible*

If the limit is the motors, then this doesn't make sense since that would cause expensive warranty failures, but if the limit is the battery, then higher discharge will likely increase warranty issues but not nearly as fast or as severe, perhaps Tesla can calculate how much they'd have to charge based on estimate increased warranty liability.

Should be a discount to those hosed on the price reductions.

 

[PhaseWhite]

Should be a discount to those hosed on the price reductions.

That will just create another group of people who feel like they've been shafted

 

[Knightshade]

The P motors not the RWD but those are not balanced parts supposedly.

...what?

Every rear motor, RWD, AWD, and P, across all the LR cars, are literally the same motor- as confirmed in both the Tesla parts catalog and owners actually posting pics of the drive unit PNs on production cars.... likewise the front is the same between all AWD versions.

And they obviously were not maxxed out from original testing since they just announced a 5% power bump to all of em.

 

[rlb4]

Not going to happen with the PM motors in the rear, they are maxed. Tesla destroyed many of them in testing to get the max power out of them.

And you know this how? Please post a link to your source. I think it is very unlikely that any of the motors are maxed out from the start. It just doesn't make sense to do that. And Tesla has a history of increasing power down the road.

 

[MagnusMako]

And you know this how? Please post a link to your source. I think it is very unlikely that any of the motors are maxed out from the start. It just doesn't make sense to do that. And Tesla has a history of increasing power down the road.

He is probably referring to the P3D in which the battery discharge is near to the limit with the pack (95%). The AWD is around 74% so still plenty of room for more there. See Ingineerix breakdowns and hacked factory mode photos.

...what?

Every rear motor, RWD, AWD, and P, across all the LR cars, are literally the same motor- as confirmed in both the Tesla parts catalog and owners actually posting pics of the drive unit PNs on production cars.... likewise the front is the same between all AWD versions.

And they obviously were not maxxed out from original testing since they just announced a 5% power bump to all of em.

Even the former global email manager of Tesla has admitted numerous times that they are the same.

 

[EVDRVN]

...what?

Every rear motor, RWD, AWD, and P, across all the LR cars, are literally the same motor- as confirmed in both the Tesla parts catalog and owners actually posting pics of the drive unit PNs on production cars.... likewise the front is the same between all AWD versions.

And they obviously were not maxxed out from original testing since they just announced a 5% power bump to all of em.

The rear motors are mechanically identical except the AWD motors have balanced inverters that allow them to have more power. more than 95% of the AWD motors meet this spec, it is more about the fraction that do not so almost all of them can be upgraded. The part numbers are not relevant in terms of consumer comparison. The testing for the non-balanced motors were maxed out for performance and reliability, the 5% has nothing to do with that as there is a working range but don't expect uncorking of the RWD PM motors like the inductions. That's about as detailed as I can get without revealing how I know but simply looking at parts numbers is not the entire story. The AWD P cars are tracked for exception but the does not mean there are not RWD cars that could better handle the P power levels. PM motors are not the same as induction and are more efficient but come with performance trade offs and other limitations. Tesla destroyed many motors on the test bench, far more than the induction models. I have NEVER said the motors or inverters were physically different and I posted the specs here long before they were ever public and they ended up being accurate in both config, power, and design. Early buyers with a P paid $10k for a software check and track mode. Tesla maps car features and equipment down to the component level on the cars and verifies them with the profile on their server by VIN, they must match so any changes not done by Tesla require the cars to be off the Tesla servers. There is always Tesla disinformation so people don't fully understand what they are paying for in detail, just like the website. In the past it was more clear like larger front motors, added fuses, etc.

The AWD models could possibly get a little out of the front small induction motor but I'm not sure where the power balance is presently and it is a much smaller motor. A higher density pack to combat efficiency and dual inductions would make for an insane performance 3 however but the 3 has a segment as will any new S and the roadster. Those with AWD cars have the most to gain of al the 3 cars as there can be substantial power gains unlocked which is why I waited for AWD After having an 85D (miss the insane traction) there was no way I could move to RWD, I will say there is still work to be done on the AWD software as noted by snow users.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Not going to happen with the PM motors in the rear, they are maxed. Tesla destroyed many of them in testing to get the max power out of them.

Yeah, as others have said...source?

No, it uses the full 800A inverter on the rear PM motor of the RWD plus the addition oft the induction motor up front. The AWD 3 uses a 500A inverter in the rear and the RWD uses 800A in the rear. It's not a "software" update.

The testing for the non-balanced motors were maxed out for performance and reliability, the 5% has nothing to do with that as there is a working range but don't expect uncorking of the RWD PM motors like the inductions. That's about as detailed as I can get without revealing how I know but simply looking at parts numbers is not the entire story.

I have NEVER said the motors or inverters were physically different and I posted the specs here long before they were ever public and they ended up being accurate in both config, power, and design.

Well, I went looking for these specs you posted. I could not find them - I’m not saying they aren’t there, I just could not find them in your posts. But anyway, in the course of looking, I found the first quote of the above three which seems to indicate you did indeed say at one point the inverters were physically different. It may be that your quote did not have appropriate caveats attached, I don’t know.

In any case, at this point, I really think we need a little bit better hard evidence other than what you heard from a friend who works at Tesla. It’s pretty easy for a game of telephone between friends to warp the facts.

So some hard evidence would be good for the strength of the claims you are making. You may be right, but you are claiming you KNOW, not that you are speculating.

 

[EVDRVN]

Yeah, as others have said...source?







Well, I went looking for these specs you posted. I could not find them - I’m not saying they aren’t there, I just could not find them in your posts. But anyway, in the course of looking, I found the first quote of the above three which seems to indicate you did indeed say at one point the inverters were physically different. It may be that your quote did not have appropriate caveats attached, I don’t know.

In any case, at this point, I really think we need a little bit better hard evidence other than what you heard from a friend who works at Tesla. It’s pretty easy for a game of telephone between friends to warp the facts.

So some hard evidence would be good for the strength of the claims you are making. You may be right, but you are claiming you KNOW, not that you are speculating.

The inverters on the rear motor are not different, the front motor is an induction motor and has a different power rating that is what I was meant above. The source was Tesla that is all I can say, I'm not making it up. Any info I post regarding any specs would come from Tesla not a 3rd party or the internets There is some info I just won't post here because it is not appropriate and I left out some specifics before as well for obvious reasons. Back then the EPA rating was 320 for the AWD and 325 for the RWD. Final specs on the car were modified as they often are. IMO the performance upgrade should have been offered on any config of the AWD with any wheel package not just two and at a lower cost. This would have been a huge profit center since the AWD price was increased and most people would have gone up to the 19" wheels. People wanted the rest could opt for that package. The soon learned that it was high and added the performance package as it should have been at that price in the beginning, Performance only for AWD should have been about $4K. My guess is more people would have bought the AWD and $1500 upgraded wheels which is a more practical package for many people that don't want blown and summer only tires.

 

[Knightshade]

The rear motors are mechanically identical except the AWD motors have balanced inverters that allow them to have more power.

The part numbers in the catalog do not support this claim.

AWD and RWD get literally the same PN drive units which include the inverter.

So when the DU fails in either type of car, they both get the same part as a replacement.

more than 95% of the AWD motors meet this spec, it is more about the fraction that do not so almost all of them can be upgraded. The part numbers are not relevant in terms of consumer comparison.

They matter for inventory, repair, and supply chain.

And the ones you claim exist- don't.

The testing for the non-balanced motors were maxed out for performance and reliability, the 5% has nothing to do with that as there is a working range but don't expect uncorking of the RWD PM motors like the inductions. That's about as detailed as I can get without revealing how I know but simply looking at parts numbers is not the entire story. The AWD P cars are tracked for exception but the does not mean there are not RWD cars that could better handle the P power levels. PM motors are not the same as induction and are more efficient but come with performance trade offs and other limitations.

...you're aware the LR RWD and P both use PM motors in the rear, right? (the same one in fact)

The only place induction is used is the front motor- and again it's the same one on AWD and P cars.

Tesla destroyed many motors on the test bench, far more than the induction models. I have NEVER said the motors or inverters were physically different

I mean, except where you just said that 5 minutes ago...let me remind you-

The rear motors are mechanically identical except the AWD motors have balanced inverters that allow them to have more power.

Early buyers with a P paid $10k for a software check and track mode.

Well, 5-6k after the refund...

The AWD models could possibly get a little out of the front small induction motor but I'm not sure where the power balance is presently and it is a much smaller motor.

It is literally the exact same motor as in the P. Front DUs are the same on all model 3 cars shipped to date.

 

[EVDRVN]

You seem to think that is the only way to track something on a Tesla a PN. There is a third element to this, read between the lines and you may figure it out. I tried to give you a hint a long time ago. What if there is a difference somewhere but that difference became the standard? What if there are indicators in the cars system? Have you ever looked at the info on the dealer software and the level of detail on the cars parts when connected to the car? I'll leave it at that but according to you every AWD can go P , so let's get that option up for a reasonable price. Sure beats $2K for stupid FSD and the slide of hand descriptions.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

motor is an induction motor and has a different power rating that is what I was meant above

Well, you specifically said the AWD Model 3 uses a 500A inverter in the rear. So I don’t know whether that is true or not now! I tend to think that is NOT the case.

Anyway, since you claim to have inside knowledge:

1) Is torque ripple actually a problem?
2) what is limiting how fast they can ramp up the torque (seems to take about 1 motor revolution, about 1 foot roll, before reaching full torque)?
3) When they were blowing up motors, what was failing? The inverters or the motor itself?
4) How many amps did it take them to melt down the motor (or inverter)?
5) How much more torque can they produce from the rear motor?
6) What is the purpose of the 990 “MOSFET-LC” motor? It has not been installed on any car to date to our knowledge.

 

[GTKAZ]

+1 to release the report for public knowledge!

Well, you specifically said the AWD Model 3 uses a 500A inverter in the rear. So I don’t know whether that is true or not now! I tend to think that is NOT the case.

Anyway, since you claim to have inside knowledge:

1) Is torque ripple actually a problem?
2) what is limiting how fast they can ramp up the torque (seems to take about 1 motor revolution, about 1 foot roll, before reaching full torque)?
3) When they were blowing up motors, what was failing? The inverters or the motor itself?
4) How many amps did it take them to melt down the motor (or inverter)?
5) How much more torque can they produce from the rear motor?
6) What is the purpose of the 990 “MOSFET-LC” motor? It has not been installed on any car to date to our knowledge.

 

[XBS9]

I had a similar thought but for non-P AWD owners. I'd gladly pay $3-$5k depending on how much of a boost I got. Doesn't even need to match P3D speed but would be great if it did.

NonP AWD here would pay 5k to be P3D-

 

[Nocturnal]

Anyone who thinks they would give AWD cars P3D speed for less than the price difference between AWD and P3D new is delusional. Why on Earth would Tesla do that? Best case it would cost MORE than the difference. Pricing it the same or less would severely damage demand for P3D.

 

[Knightshade]

Anyone who thinks they would give AWD cars P3D speed for less than the price difference between AWD and P3D new is delusional. Why on Earth would Tesla do that? Best case it would cost MORE than the difference. Pricing it the same or less would severely damage demand for P3D.

If you mean difference between AWD and the P3D- the stopped selling then yeah it'd have to be equal or more than that ($5000-6000 depending when you ordered)

The P3D+ obviously comes with hardware the others don't that you wouldn't get with a SW update.

(in fact killing off the P3D- makes it much easier for Tesla to offer an AWD unlock to P software without hurting P sales...since if the - was still sold there'd be much less reason to buy one if you could unlock an AWD to it later... but you can't software upgrade the brakes, wheels, or suspension to the + if you're someone who cares about those aspects at all)

 

[rlb4]

If you mean difference between AWD and the P3D- the stopped selling then yeah it'd have to be equal or more than that ($5000-6000 depending when you ordered)

The P3D+ obviously comes with hardware the others don't that you wouldn't get with a SW update.

(in fact killing off the P3D- makes it much easier for Tesla to offer an AWD unlock to P software without hurting P sales...since if the - was still sold there'd be much less reason to buy one if you could unlock an AWD to it later... but you can't software upgrade the brakes, wheels, or suspension to the + if you're someone who cares about those aspects at all)

^This. The $10-11k difference between the P and DM is $5k hardware(brakes, wheels, suspension) and $5-6k software. So charging $5-6k for just a software unlock to P performance would make a lot of sense and would still keep a distinction between the P and DM. The P would also have track mode to further distinguish it. I would even be happy taking the DM down to 3.5 sec 0-60 so as to give the P a few tenths extra advantage to keep them happy.

 

[phantasms]

::Insert take my money meme image here::

 

[zhu-]

Anyone who thinks they would give AWD cars P3D speed for less than the price difference between AWD and P3D new is delusional. Why on Earth would Tesla do that? Best case it would cost MORE than the difference. Pricing it the same or less would severely damage demand for P3D.

The current P3D+ has several upgraded parts in addition to just the speed. The 20" wheels alone are $4k. I think $5k just to uncork acceleration isn't unreasonable. I also wouldn't mind if it was a tad slower than actual P3Ds, maybe just below 4.0 or so for a middle ground "AWD+" model. I just wish the AWD had a bit more kick off the line like the P3D has.