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If you can't sleep in it, it is not self-driving

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
3,285
2,779
Orange County, CA
I might take issue with "so heavily". As far as I know, remote assistance is pretty rare. JJ Ricks has done 70 rides with only a couple instances of remote assistance.
I prefer "autonomous* driving" vs. what Waymo does (not autonomous because humans are always ready to back up the system, albeit remotely).

And JJ Ricks lives in a wonderful geofenced garden where weather is very rarely an issue. Conveniently enough.

Let's see it ride from Haight-Ashbury to Fisherman's Wharf over several hundred runs.

*Destination endpoint is set by a human, vehicle travels there, safely without the need for backup human remote support or other human intervention of any kind. Waymo ain't that.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,916
4,189
VB
I prefer "autonomous* driving" vs. what Waymo does (not autonomous because humans are always ready to back up the system, albeit remotely).

And JJ Ricks lives in a wonderful geofenced garden where weather is very rarely an issue. Conveniently enough.

Let's see it ride from Haight-Ashbury to Fisherman's Wharf over several hundred runs.

*Destination endpoint is set by a human, vehicle travels there, safely without the need for backup human remote support or other human intervention of any kind. Waymo ain't that.
Yea, I agree but waymo in its little playground is magnitudes more autonomous than any of its competitors are anywhere. And there is no reason to believe that with further validation it could be what you are describing, in Chandler. The problem is it can’t venture out of the playground whereas a Tesla at level 2 (which I believe is close to fruition) will be available at scale. Level 2 at scale seems immensely more valuable than waymo. Waymo hasn’t shown it can get itself out of chandler.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,534
12,090
Terre Haute, IN USA
Waymo hasn’t shown it can get itself out of chandler.

To be precise Waymo has not deployed a public service outside of Chandler yet. But Waymo has deployed their vehicles in autonomous mode with safety drivers outside of Chandler for awhile now. We know this because the Waymo Driver has driven millions of completely autonomous miles in cities all over the US. So the autonomous tech does work outside out Chandler, they just have not let the public use it outside of Chandler yet. An important distinction!
 
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diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,534
12,090
Terre Haute, IN USA
I prefer "autonomous* driving" vs. what Waymo does (not autonomous because humans are always ready to back up the system, albeit remotely).

Waymo is autonomous driving because the car is doing 100% of the driving. Remote assistance never controls the car. Remote assistance only provides suggestions but the car is still in autonomous mode and makes all the decisions. Remote assistance is like your passenger offering you driving suggestions.

Certainly, AV companies want to get remote assistance down to zero. But if the car stays in autonomous mode the whole time and makes all the driving decisions, then it is still autonomous driving.
 
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tander

Active Member
Jul 23, 2012
1,512
1,563
This is just a semantic argument, and I don't see the point. I mean, put a normal person in the passenger seat, engage AP (not even FSD, no need to even bother to get technical here), enter a turn or three, and ask them what it is doing. They will say "The car is driving itself." Straightforward language expressed in a standard way.

Yet you want a straightforward reorganization of the same word roots to be false: "The car is NOT self-driving."

That seems to me to obscure more than it helps. It sounds good if you want the answer to be "FSD is bad", I guess? It doesn't help explain anything to anyone who doesn't already understand how vehicle autonomy works. Nor does it address the fact that there is value in all those intermediate ("bad") states that require some level of supervision.
To me, or rather my Grandparents, it's really not semantics. The difference between what Tesla has now which is pretty cool, and sleep in your car self driving is my legally blind Grandpa could get in, tell it where to go and arrive like magic. This would be a huge thing for our elders that tend to get more isolated with age (and their caregivers). We're just working on making sure he can get in and out right now though:) Not to mention I'd love to be able to get into my car at 9pm, hit the sack, and wake up a thousand miles away, this makes me wonder if at some point they'll have recharging vans or something that will automatically hook up to while driving and recharge like airplane refueling.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,534
12,090
Terre Haute, IN USA
this makes me wonder if at some point they'll have recharging vans or something that will automatically hook up to while driving and recharge like airplane refueling.

Ford has a patent for something very similar. It would be a semi truck that could tow an EV behind it and recharge it via regen braking.


But I doubt this method will actually become real. It does not seem very practical.

I think a better approach would be to have robotic chargers that could plug in for you. 5 years ago, Tesla teased a prototype robotic charger that could automatically plug in your car. The idea was going to be that FSD would be able to automatically pull into a spot and the robotic charger would take care of the charging. When charging was complete, the robotic charger would pull out and FSD would continue the trip. This way, the FSD Tesla could do an entire trip with no human intervention, not even for charging. Obviously, that never happened.

 

FloridaJohn

Member
Apr 1, 2016
411
547
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
The idea was going to be that FSD would be able to automatically pull into a spot and the robotic charger would take care of the charging. When charging was complete, the robotic charger would pull out and FSD would continue the trip. This way, the FSD Tesla could do an entire trip with no human intervention, not even for charging. Obviously, that never happened.
Which part? :p
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,916
4,189
VB
I prefer "autonomous* driving" vs. what Waymo does (not autonomous because humans are always ready to back up the system, albeit remotely).

And JJ Ricks lives in a wonderful geofenced garden where weather is very rarely an issue. Conveniently enough.

Let's see it ride from Haight-Ashbury to Fisherman's Wharf over several hundred runs.

*Destination endpoint is set by a human, vehicle travels there, safely without the need for backup human remote support or other human intervention of any kind. Waymo ain't that.
Yea, I agree but waymo in its little playground is magnitudes more autonomous than any of its competitors are anywhere. The problem is it can’t venture out of the playground whereas a Tesla at level 2 (which I believe is close to fruition) will be available at scale. Level 2 at scale seems immensely more valuable than waymo. Waymo hasn’t shown it can get itself out of chandler.
Ford has a patent for something very similar. It would be a semi truck that could tow an EV behind it and recharge it via regen braking.


But I doubt this method will actually become real. It does not seem very practical.

I think a better approach would be to have robotic chargers that could plug in for you. 5 years ago, Tesla teased a prototype robotic charger that could automatically plug in your car. The idea was going to be that FSD would be able to automatically pull into a spot and the robotic charger would take care of the charging. When charging was complete, the robotic charger would pull out and FSD would continue the trip. This way, the FSD Tesla could do an entire trip with no human intervention, not even for charging. Obviously, that never happened.

Ford has a patent for something very similar. It would be a semi truck that could tow an EV behind it and recharge it via regen braking.


But I doubt this method will actually become real. It does not seem very practical.

I think a better approach would be to have robotic chargers that could plug in for you. 5 years ago, Tesla teased a prototype robotic charger that could automatically plug in your car. The idea was going to be that FSD would be able to automatically pull into a spot and the robotic charger would take care of the charging. When charging was complete, the robotic charger would pull out and FSD would continue the trip. This way, the FSD Tesla could do an entire trip with no human intervention, not even for charging. Obviously, that never happened.

It will happen though....
 
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ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,052
8,860
Maine
I think a better approach would be to have robotic chargers that could plug in for you. 5 years ago, Tesla teased a prototype robotic charger that could automatically plug in your car. The idea was going to be that FSD would be able to automatically pull into a spot and the robotic charger would take care of the charging. When charging was complete, the robotic charger would pull out and FSD would continue the trip. This way, the FSD Tesla could do an entire trip with no human intervention, not even for charging. Obviously, that never happened.
However, it's worth remembering that the "snake charger" demo was just the end result of Musk spouting nonsense at the AWD/AP1 reveal.

He talked about summoning the car from the other side of the country, and somebody in the crowd asked the sensible question of how it would charge. Musk made up the snake charger idea on the spot.

So, it wasn't planned. If you _really_ have autonomy, you'll probably not bother, as they'll just pay a minimum wage drone at the deopt to clear out any crap from the cars and plug them in.
 

caligula666

Member
Mar 2, 2017
134
118
Switzerland
Yea, I agree but waymo in its little playground is magnitudes more autonomous than any of its competitors are anywhere. And there is no reason to believe that with further validation it could be what you are describing, in Chandler. The problem is it can’t venture out of the playground whereas a Tesla at level 2 (which I believe is close to fruition) will be available at scale. Level 2 at scale seems immensely more valuable than waymo. Waymo hasn’t shown it can get itself out of chandler.
Did Tesla show it can get itself out of North America? Let me know when that happens :)
 

mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,562
2,689
Charlotte, NC
Seems irrelevant to me. I live in North America, I could give **** all about Taiwan....
I actually understand why EU residents are upset (I just don't understand why they are upset with Tesla), they get f#cked by their regulators to the point where normal Autopilot is sh!t but most users/owners just complain about Tesla!

The Autopilot functionality we have here in US performs better than the Autopilot in the EU. And the US is always getting the features rolled out first. I am def glad I live here!
 

Dknight

Member
Sep 10, 2019
10
0
Florida
I think Elon made a mistake calling it Full Self Driving. He should have just continued to update Enhanced Auto Pilot with the FSD software until it really becomes FSD. My own research into FSD from friends in AL and robotics research indicates to me its at least 10 years or more away. Another issue is Public Works in all state standardizing road markings. They also need to do better a removing old road markings so that EAP and FSD cars would not get confused and go into a guardrails
 
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mikes_fsd

Banned
May 23, 2014
2,562
2,689
Charlotte, NC
I think Elon made a mistake calling it Full Self Driving.
Disagree - they've stated their claim pretty clearly and that is the final goal for the Autopilot suite!

He should have just continued to update Enhanced Auto Pilot with the FSD software until it really becomes FSD.
EAP was firmly in the old legacy code base (code 1.0) there was very little chance that EAP ever survived with FSD work in general.

P.S. you cannot code enough exception blocks (old code) to account for ALL of driving reality. hence none of the legacy code would/could ever achieve self-driving.
 

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
3,916
4,189
VB
1627575860738.jpeg




does it really matter what you call it?
 

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