If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[Rocky_H]

They are certainly not made of the same parts, or chargers that are in our cars, If they were we would not need DC fast chargers.

Wow. That's not correct. It's the very fact of what the onboard charger does is why they do use those same units. They convert AC power to DC.

This was talking about the version2 Superchargers, and that is a known and confirmed fact from years ago that inside the Supercharger cabinets really is a stack of the same onboard chargers that are installed in the cars. It just groups them so you can process 120kW instead of just 10kW, for example. Here are some thread posts about it from back in 2014 and 2017.

Whats in those Superchargers

Finally 120KW Supercharging!

I don't think we have much information about what's in the version3 Superchargers, and with them being so much higher power, they may be using a different system for the internals of those.

 

[DarkMatter]

They are certainly not made of the same parts, or chargers that are in our cars, If they were we would not need DC fast chargers.

Supercharger SuperGuide | TeslaTap

The v2 charger is based around 12 charger modules. That's how you get 120 kW charging, since each pre-refresh charger was 10 kW. What evidence do you have that they use significantly different electronics in v2?

 

[JRP3]

March 11th 2020 study found Panasonic NCR 18650B batteries are damaged from Fast-charging. Article suggest improved "industrial" to "adaptive" charging based on internal resistance.

Fast-charging damages electric car batteries

According to their research, my car battery is fried. Industrial fast charging fell below 80% capacity after 25 cycles and 60% after 60.

I'm not sure what they were doing but clearly they aren't using the same fast charging methods that Tesla, or anyone else, is using, and Panasonic NCR 18650B is not the same as Tesla cells. Something is obviously flawed in their testing methodology when their "improved" charging method is worse than anything currently in use in the real world.

 

[LaurS]

I charged the car about 22.5 times at the chargers on the side of the road, a couple more and my battery will drop to 80%. Need to call Tesla and ask them to pay the professors some money for their patent.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

They are certainly not made of the same parts, or chargers that are in our cars, If they were we would not need DC fast chargers.

In the earlier Model S vehicles, the AC->DC charger unit was a box that converted single-phase AC (120V up to 277V) to DC at up to 40A. Maximum power was 11 KW. These Model S cars were also available with dual chargers that doubled the charging capacity to 80A / 22 KW.

The original superchargers consisted of a stack of 12 of these boxes in 4 groups of 3, each group wired to 277V 3-phase power, for a total output of 12 * 277 * 40 = 133 KW. The stack provided power to two stanchions (A & B), and each of the 4 groups can be switched to one stanchion or the other, allowing two cars to share the 133 kW of available power.

Later supercharger designs continued to use these boxes with slight modifications that increased the total power output up to around 145 KW. (Version 3 superchargers with up to 250 kW charging are a completely different, newer design).

Later Model S and Model X cars used a newer version of the charger that supported up to 72A. The Model 3 uses similar designs but with lower power outputs (48A for LR cars, 32A for SR cars).

So yes, the chargers actually are the same. Both covert AC power to DC power. It's just that one of them does it inside the car at low power, and the other does it outside the car at high power.

 

[joltheadq]

The link I sent earlier was a summary webpage but the article goes into much more depth.

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The panasonic 18650B doesn't differ enough in design to be considered "significantly" different than the batteries in Tesla S/X. They did cycle the batteries between 4.2V and 2.5V. Which the BMS will never allow to go below 3.0V. These cells seem to be subjected to much more extreme testing than our cars, as far as operating parameters. It's an informative article, and was based on 1972 testing on Lead Acid batteries.

 

[SilverString]

In the earlier Model S vehicles, the AC->DC charger unit was a box that converted single-phase AC (120V up to 277V) to DC at up to 40A. Maximum power was 11 KW. These Model S cars were also available with dual chargers that doubled the charging capacity to 80A / 22 KW.

The original superchargers consisted of a stack of 12 of these boxes in 4 groups of 3, each group wired to 277V 3-phase power, for a total output of 12 * 277 * 40 = 133 KW. The stack provided power to two stanchions (A & B), and each of the 4 groups can be switched to one stanchion or the other, allowing two cars to share the 133 kW of available power.

Later supercharger designs continued to use these boxes with slight modifications that increased the total power output up to around 145 KW. (Version 3 superchargers with up to 250 kW charging are a completely different, newer design).

Later Model S and Model X cars used a newer version of the charger that supported up to 72A. The Model 3 uses similar designs but with lower power outputs (48A for LR cars, 32A for SR cars).

So yes, the chargers actually are the same. Both covert AC power to DC power. It's just that one of them does it inside the car at low power, and the other does it outside the car at high power.

Okay I give, I did not know this. Good info.

 

[SilverString]

They are certainly not made of the same parts, or chargers that are in our cars, If they were we would not need DC fast chargers.

I was wrong, I admit it

 

[SilverString]

Wow. That's not correct. It's the very fact of what the onboard charger does is why they do use those same units. They convert AC power to DC.

This was talking about the version2 Superchargers, and that is a known and confirmed fact from years ago that inside the Supercharger cabinets really is a stack of the same onboard chargers that are installed in the cars. It just groups them so you can process 120kW instead of just 10kW, for example. Here are some thread posts about it from back in 2014 and 2017.

Whats in those Superchargers

Finally 120KW Supercharging!

I don't think we have much information about what's in the version3 Superchargers, and with them being so much higher power, they may be using a different system for the internals of those.

Yea looks like I was wrong about the same parts issue, but that does not preclude a failure or degradation in the chain, so to speak that may effect overall charger performance. I still wonder why some V2 charger banks are slower than others. I have experienced this on a few occasions in situations where there I am the only one charging.

 

[SilverString]

Supercharger SuperGuide | TeslaTap

The v2 charger is based around 12 charger modules. That's how you get 120 kW charging, since each pre-refresh charger was 10 kW. What evidence do you have that they use significantly different electronics in v2?

None, I made an assumption so shoot me. I believe you. But the thrust of my argument is that there is degradation in some V2 superchargers. The fact that they use the same parts that are in the car does not preclude this.

 

[JRP3]

The panasonic 18650B doesn't differ enough in design to be considered "significantly" different than the batteries in Tesla S/X.

Small amounts of proprietary additives can drastically alter cell properties, especially cycle life.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

None, I made an assumption so shoot me. I believe you. But the thrust of my argument is that there is degradation in some V2 superchargers. The fact that they use the same parts that are in the car does not preclude this.

A lot of the issues that exist with some of the superchargers are due to degradation of the handle and contacts. The superchargers have a temperature monitor for the handle and cable, and worn or dirty contacts and/or degraded copper wiring from constant flexing will cause the handle to heat up. The supercharger will back off the charge rate if the handle is too hot.

This is especially a problem in the summer where the ambient temperatures are higher, and when there is no breeze that can cool the handle.

Most issues with the charger boxes themselves are detected by the on-board diagnostic and fault software, and will shut down that charger stack completely.

If you run into a stanchion that gives sub-par charging speeds, but charging speeds return to normal at a different stanchion, call Tesla roadside assistance and report the malfunctioning supercharger stanchion, and they'll schedule repair/maintenance.

 

[DarkMatter]

None, I made an assumption so shoot me. I believe you. But the thrust of my argument is that there is degradation in some V2 superchargers. The fact that they use the same parts that are in the car does not preclude this.

It's all good, we figure this out together.

I have seen plenty of people here assuming the Supercharger hardware is at fault, and when you dig in to their session you find out they were at a high SOC, or a shared stall, or low battery temperature. This is part of why I suggested earlier in the thread that it would be great for Tesla to have a supercharger troubleshooter. It's so easy to take a few events and start making guesses that don't match with how the hardware actually works, and it's a very human thing to do.

 

[LaurS]

I owe Tesla an apology, not that bad after 82000 miles:

Outside Temperature 54F
Start cell average Temp 87.6F
End cell average Temp 108F

Time,Percentage,kW,kWh added
12:47:55,4,120,0
12:47:59,4,114,0
12:49:52,9,96,4
12:51:02,11,90,5
12:52:30,14,86,7
12:55:35,20,82,12
12:56:29,21,80,13
12:58:28,25,76,15
13:01:42,30,70,19
13:05:13,35,67,23
13:07:32,38,65,25
13:08:25,40,64,26
13:11:36,44,60,30
13:12:28,45,60,30
13:12:30,45,60,31
13:12:40,46,59,31
13:15:10,49,56,33
13:15:30,49,55,33
13:15:54,50,54,34
13:19:15,54,50,37
13:19:59,55,50,37
13:24:41,60,46,41
13:25:40,61,45,42
13:29:51,65,42,45
13:33:01,68,41,47
13:33:05,68,40,47
13:35:03,70,40,48
13:40:40,75,37,52
13:43:48,77,35,54
13:47:05,80,32,56

Time was kind of random. I was multitasking, but tried to get data every 5% and/or power every 5KW.

 

[DarkMatter]

If you do that with the X axis as SOC you can directly compare to the graph on the ABRP blog.

 

[aerodyne]

March 11th 2020 study found Panasonic NCR 18650B batteries are damaged from Fast-charging. Article suggest improved "industrial" to "adaptive" charging based on internal resistance.

Fast-charging damages electric car batteries

According to their research, my car battery is fried. Industrial fast charging fell below 80% capacity after 25 cycles and 60% after 60.

This study is flawed and misleading. They did not cool the batteries the way Tesla does. Many example (Tesloop) of cars 100% SuCed, to 100%, Twice a DAY, going 200000+miles before pack replacement under warranty...

 

[Chaserr]

They did not cool the batteries the way Tesla does.

Neither did Tesla, apparently, which is probably why they throttle charging so much.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Since my 85 kWh battery was #chargegated, the HVAC no longer ramps up while charging. It seems the vehicle keeps charging below the threshold where HVAC fans needs to kick in. Prior to #chargegate, the louvers opened and the HVAC would run full blast, and with at least 50% more current going into the pack. Now it's totally quiet, with only the coolant pump running. Supercharging speeds are under 70 kW with less than 30% SOC.

 

[Benjamin Brooks]

Since my 85 kWh battery was #chargegated, the HVAC no longer ramps up while charging. It seems the vehicle keeps charging below the threshold where HVAC fans needs to kick in. Prior to #chargegate, the louvers opened and the HVAC would run full blast, and with at least 50% more current going into the pack. Now it's totally quiet, with only the coolant pump running. Supercharging speeds are under 70 kW with less than 30% SOC.

Yep, SuperCharging on my S85 rev B battery Model S has become soooo slow. Regularly drops to below 35kW even before a 50% SoC!

 

[seenhear]

What'd you go with? I can't bring myself to go back to a gas car, and the Taycan is a joke, so I'm kinda left optionless at this point.

So, I'm curious, if you were given a new battery right now, knowing what you now know about SC limitations and battery life limitations, would you be happy with that? If so, why is a new Tesla not an option for you? If not, then I think probably EVs are out altogether, right? I mean, isn't this problem largely a Li-Ion battery issue? Yes Tesla handled it very poorly, but I think all EVs are going to have the same problem.

The main thing I'm pissed about is that I didn't know I was heading for a cap on SC rate. If I knew then (when I bought the car) what I know now, I'd have almost never used a SC, whereas I used it almost exclusively back then.

If its true that they cap SC rate at around 30kmi of DCFCharging, I think I could make 30kmi last a long time if I only did it during long road trips, and the occasional "I'm in a pinch and need 50 miles of range to get home" situations.