If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[AnxietyRanger]

AFAIK Jon has not given us any "new" information that Tesla hadnt already told us in the past. He was simply "clarifying" it to the community again, so I don't consider his response as reactive at all. Yes, currently technology Cells degrade over time as their chemistry changes. We all know this. This implies lower capacity and slower supercharge rates as the batteries age with time and usage. It's the same reason 60s can't charge as fast as 85s , because their capacity is lower. As the 85s capacity degrades, they too will eventually slow down.

I would argue given the response, this was definitely not known by the community given the amount of "BS" and "oh this is new" kind of responses it got in the two threads.

No, that DC charging is bad for your car, while a theory on Supercharging on some level, never IMO had materialized as "do it a lot and your kWs will be limited by 5 minutes when Supercharging".

I challenge you to find such common conversations where it was known that frequent DC charging would slow DC charging permanently... let alone clear disclosure by Tesla in manuals.

What he clearly didn't mention was any simplistic "counter" of "if numSuperChargePlugins > N, then maxRate=90kWh". I believe all of that hype was a simplistic misinterpretation by "less technological minds" of the actual algorithm that is based on remaining current capacity.

The jury is still out on whether or not there is some charger. @JonMc did not comment on that, but the Service Center did:

 

[Electroman]

What remains unclear is whether or not there is a counter

AFAIK Jon has not given us any "new" information that Tesla hadnt already told us in the past. He was simply "clarifying" it to the community again, so I don't consider his response as reactive at all

Exactly. Tesla has implemented amazing algorithms far advanced than any other manufacturers that gives us a long life for our batteries and very low loss of range as it ages.

It just doesn't freakin matter, or it is none of our business, if it is counter based or hash tables or a binary tree. That is proprietary

Kudos Tesla. Please teach Nissan folks a thing or two about battery management.

 

[thegruf]

Has anybody here historically ever asked their ICE manufacturer if they managed power vs wear over time, or fuel consumption vs test location/highway in their firmware?

just sayin'

 

[Panu]

Has anybody here historically ever asked their ICE manufacturer if they managed power vs wear over time, or fuel consumption vs test location/highway in their firmware?

If filling up the gas tank would take 5 minutes longer than before I would like to know the reason.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Has anybody here historically ever asked their ICE manufacturer if they managed power vs wear over time, or fuel consumption vs test location/highway in their firmware?

just sayin'

No, but I hear someone asked about a slight discrepancy in diesel emissions.

 

[thefortunes]

AFAIK Jon has not given us any "new" information that Tesla hadnt already told us in the past. He was simply "clarifying" it to the community again, so I don't consider his response as reactive at all. Yes, currently technology Cells degrade over time as their chemistry changes. We all know this. This implies lower capacity and slower supercharge rates as the batteries age with time and usage. It's the same reason 60s can't charge as fast as 85s , because their capacity is lower. As the 85s capacity degrades, they too will eventually slow down.

What he clearly didn't mention was any simplistic "counter" of "if numSuperChargePlugins > N, then maxRate=90kWh". I believe all of that hype was a simplistic misinterpretation by "less technological minds" of the actual algorithm that is based on remaining current capacity.

The simplistic summary of your post (which I agree with) is:

Batteries degrade over time.

What is interesting about the OP's situation is that he seems to have seen a degradation in charging speed much sooner than others have experienced. Is this due to the newer battery chemistry or configuration, CHAdeMO charging, or something else?

 

[thegruf]

If filling up the gas tank would take 5 minutes longer than before I would like to know the reason.

if it took 5 mins longer to fill your gas tank best check if your shoes are wet

 

[ohmman]

No, but I hear someone asked about a slight discrepancy in diesel emissions.

I thought you were taking the logical fallacy high road, per your defense of Forbes earlier. Maybe that only applies to defending the negative? I sense false equivalency with clearly nefarious implications here.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I thought you were taking the logical fallacy high road, per your defense of Forbes earlier. Maybe that only applies to defending the negative? I sense false equivalency with clearly nefarious implications here.

The equivalency is nothing more than to point out we do expect information to be accurate from others as well. The magnitude is not comparable, obviously.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

What is interesting about the OP's situation is that he seems to have seen a degradation in charging speed much sooner than others have experienced. Is this due to the newer battery chemistry or configuration, CHAdeMO charging, or something else?

Not necessarily sooner than all others. The foursome we have seem to have cars of roughly similar age/mile ballparks. I do acknowledge there are older 85's not affected by this and only one 85D said to be affected amongst the reports. Understand how/why that split happens is an important bit of information. I am doing my bit to move that conversation forward by returning to details and asking for clarifications.

Truth will be plenty enough for me. If the truth is not dramatic, then it is not. Very easy.

 

[Electroman]

I wish the tech guy simply had said, 'everything is under spec. Your battery is good'.

OP would have simply moved on with no noticeable impact to his trips. It is the reason why doctors often don't talk technical mumbo jumbo to their patients.

The patient is far better served by hearing the words, "You look fantastic Jonnny. Just need to relax, get out more and enjoy life. "

 

[thegruf]

I thought you were taking the logical fallacy high road, per your defense of Forbes earlier. Maybe that only applies to defending the negative? I sense false equivalency with clearly nefarious implications here.

pass the scothc I'm still trying to work that one out

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I wish the tech guy simply had said, 'everything is under spec. Your battery is good'.

OP would have simply moved on with no noticeable impact to his trips. It is the reason why doctors often don't talk technical mumbo jumbo to their patients.

The patient is far better served by hearing the words, "You look fantastic Jonnny. Just need to relax, get out more and enjoy life. "

That would be contrary to us understanding our cars better, though.

This is an enthusiast forum, I think here seeking such understanding is understandable, even commendable.

What the average Joe does and needs may be different. For us here, that info from the tech seems IMO very valuable.

 

[bonnie]

I wish the tech guy simply had said, 'everything is under spec. Your battery is good'.

I bet the tech guy agrees with you.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The tech guy may well regret this from some business point of view. Having said that, if what he said was accurate, he did us a favor by increasing our knowledge.

It is not always in the interest of companies to be so forthcoming.

 

[Electricfan]

if he had not pursued this perverse charging strategy

Why is it "perverse"? No place on their website does Tesla say "Use of DC fast charging options damages your battery and will lead to lower charging rates being enforced at supercharging stations in order to save us from having to replace your battery under warranty".

Of course that's a little tongue in cheek there - Tesla wouldn't put it so honestly, but the point is Tesla does not say anything, anywhere that I'm aware of that DC fast charges will harm the battery.

I don't have this recorded anywhere, but I would testify in court that I asked this specific question before my first purchase in 2013 - can you charge exclusively at superchargers without harm to the battery - and was assured you could.

 

[182RG]

Oh.. the free loaders?

Guess I should stop using public free toilets, water fountains, and trash cans since I have all 3 at home. I'm such a free loading bastard.....

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Electricfan @SageBrush @182RG

Freeloaders are so beside the point anyway.

This thread has an 85D owner who installed CHAdeMO at home and is now being throttled. If the OP bugs people, let's talk about the 85D owner instead.

I have a very hard time calling home charging perverse. He bought a system home, paid for everything, bought a CHAdeMO adapter from Tesla... Only after the fact was he told about this.

2015 85D - one of the first to be delivered
I got the single charger and installed chademo at home. ... I'm like the OP, over 70k miles and I've maybe charged 300 miles with level 2

I have a photo of my first supercharger session which was 115kw, for a long time I have never had a supercharger go over 87kw

On my first visit to a service center, the advisor said to not use the supercharger because of degradation. I asked him if the chademo was the same, he wasn't sure, but later called me back and told me it was.

 

[TexasEV]

It may be helpful to consider a little history here. The Model S was designed assuming that the primary means of charging would be 240V AC at 40-80A. The ability to DC charge was included to enable road trips, and the first superchargers were 90kW max. The expensive CHAdeMO adapter was made later to accommodate those owners who traveled in areas where CHAdeMO was prevalent before the supercharger network was built out enough. I can't imagine that anyone at Tesla considered that owners would use CHAdeMO as the primary means for charging their Model S. That's not just an edge case, as Elon might say, but far over the edge. Even three years after the CHAdeMO adapter became available, the number of cars using it as their primary means of charging must still be a rounding error in the size of the Tesla fleet.

So to those who use CHAdeMO for your routine charge, if after several hundred of those charges your supercharging sessions don't go over 90kW in order to protect the battery (which is what my 60 is limited to anyway), I just don't get the outrage.

 

[Electricfan]

reasonable common knowledge

Agree with everything you said except that. There's no such thing for EVs - we can't compare them to our vacuum cleaners or treadmills - mass market EVs are a completely new thing in the world (which makes me very happy to say). We need to be explicitly told by our car's manufacturer of all necessary care we need to take to get the normal useful life from our cars. Tesla has never said DC fast charging if used as the exclusive charging method will damage the battery. And that is an extremely important fact for us to be told, if its true.