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If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Naonak, May 4, 2017.

  1. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    if you had put an ~ as part of the final result I might have replied differently in the non math portion of my reply.

    ~1 + ~1 = ~2
    ~1 + ~1 might not = 2

    It's in the same vein as leaving of a positive or negative sign to me. Sorry if that seems pedantic.

    I also thought it was fair to firm up your numbers in case anyone wanted to quote it and continue forward in the discussion using those. Just trying to be helpful there.
     
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  2. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    Please find me a major corporation without "a couple of nice lawsuits pending". Most have many active, not pending, ones. It's called 'just part of the cost of doing business' these days.

    I don't think I could if I chose to. The TSLA shares I bought just keep going up and up.

    I had it in but it started to look ridiculous with all the squiggly lines. Then I thought you can not add up approximates and come to a definite. It's a mathematical impossibility. So I took it out.

    And I stand by that! :cool:
     
  3. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    Thought about buying TSLA but heard they have a horrible P/E ratio, so sticking with ETFs for now. ;) The AP2 lawsuit could cost them bigly if it gets certified. You know better than I do, but never bad idea to take some money off the table.
     
  4. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    #104 dhanson865, May 4, 2017
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
    as to 50% lost quickly I'd assume max voltage or resistance would be off and you'd get a new pack because performance was out of spec in that drastic a case. Even a 10% loss in one day would be drastic.

    Daily losses should be near to a rounding error, monthly should be a trend but still allow for summer vs winter seasonal effects. Yearly should even out those effects enough to be in the correct realm for long term degradation. Even then 50% in a year would be catastrophic failure of some sort I'm thinking.

    Tesla has thermal management way more advanced than Nissan. Worst case for a Leaf was something like an AZ resident losing about 40% in about 40 months and he got a free pack after that.

    The Nissan degradation warranty was 60 months for 33.75% loss or just over half a percent a month (on average over several years time not a max rate).

    I'd expect Tesla to replace any pack that was anywhere near as bad as a Leaf in heat.
     
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  5. JayInJapan

    JayInJapan Member

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    In my experience, CHAdeMO ramps up gradually to near its posted rate (except Nissan CHAdeMO which often throttle Tesla charging), especially above 50-60% SOC.
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Yes, at some point degradation can be determined to be unusual and evidence of a defective battery (for example if the pack loses 50% its capacity in a year with less than 10k miles, that's pretty obviously a defect).

    The 70% number was from a very old FAQ question for the typical expected life of the battery. It does not tie into the warranty in any way, nor did Tesla say they will replace the battery at that point. Legally, Tesla is not tied to any specific percentage.

    "How many years will the battery last?
    Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)."
    Model S | Frequently Asked Questions | Tesla Motors
     
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  7. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    There may be a threshold that they consider a failure, but it isn't published, so we can't assume it exists, or if it did exist in the past that it still does and is the same.

    No, Tesla is doing this to protect you from overly degrading your battery. (Even if it does reduce their income by you not needing to replace your battery as soon.)

    Are you really saying that if you had the choice you would want your individual charge sessions to be 5 minutes shorter even if it meant you degraded your battery as a result and could drive less distance every time you charged?

    I think that overall this is a good policy/customer service, but I think they should be more upfront about it, and even give you an option to opt-out of the protection knowing that it means you would be degrading your battery more. In addition I suspect they need to modify the counter logic to not count slow DC fast chargers as fast charging. (Are they counting 24kW CHAdeMOs right now, even though they are only slightly faster than using the dual-AC chargers in a car? What about 50kW charging does that really degrade the battery much?)
     
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  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    I hope it doesn't have to caterwaul. That would be embarrassing.
     
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  9. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    CHAdeMO is dumb. It only does what the car asks for, up to the limits of the charger (typically 125 amps).

    Tesla Supercharger, CHAdeMO, SAE CCS-Combo1, GB/T, are all DC charging protocols.

    The Tesla battery is either 400 VDC for large battery Tesla cars (85-90-100kWh), or 350 VDC for small battery Tesla cars (40-60-70-75kWh). Yes, all modern DC chargers will operate at 400 volts.
     
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  10. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    It doesn't affect him at all. He has a Volt and a Bolt EV, and has a bit of a chip on his shoulder about "GM" vehicles.
     
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  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush REJECT Fascism

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    Well, this has been an informative read and I look forward to more disclosure. In the meantime I have to say that the discovery does not bother me since I have no intention of abusing DC chargers and I am not feeling sympathetic towards OP. Karma comes to mind.

    I do wonder what this means for the resale market and Tesla's stated intentions to place DC charging in urban areas for the Apt/Condo crowd that do not have AC charging at home. Hong Kong comes to mind as a current example.
     
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  12. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    For all we know this limitation is only on specific (a) version(s) of the batteries. They could have changed the battery formulation so newer batteries aren't impacted the same way. (Take a look at this article: Tesla battery researcher unveils new chemistry to increase lifecycle at high voltage)
     
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  13. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    Can't blame the OP for assuming using Fast DC charging is safe. I have know for years that high C-rate charging was bad for batteries, but not every Tesla owner even knows what that means.

    Tesla can't sell as many cars if they disclose SC degrades battery life, as does Ludicrous mode, and that ludicrous speeds are only valid between 90-100% charge. And that you car at x months will be less capable than when you first drove it home.
     
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  14. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    In thinking about it I recall that @Bjorn has mentioned in some of his videos that he has seen Supercharging top out at 90kW lately. (And from watching his videos he uses CHAdeMO and Superchargers a lot.) Though I think he thought the limit was because of cooling system issues, but maybe it is related to this. @Bjorn any chance you could reach out to your service center and ask them to look to see if your car has throttled Supercharging because of "excessive" DC fast charging?
     
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  15. Naonak

    Naonak Member

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    Yes, I would absolutely opt out of it. My time is far more valuable than a theoretical battery degradation years down the road. Right now, losing 25 kW of charging capacity costs me about 10minutes extra per stop, from the few Superchargers I have tracked on road trip routes I have taken before and after this issue came to light. This all adds up...

    In an ICE, I will typically drive 300 - 600 miles without stopping, so it takes me about 9 hours to go a full tank of fuel and I may or may not stop between tanks. I have to stop every ~100 miles or so in the Tesla and charge, increasing my trip time by 30 - 70%. Now, with this added burden, that piles on another ~25 - 30ish% of stop time. The Superchargers I frequent are in the middle of nowhere with nothing around to do, so I have to sit around and wait to charge the entire time. There is only so much eating I can do every 90 minutes. The additional 10+ minutes per stop is exceedingly painful on top of an already painful experience.

    There is no driving less distance each time. I MUST stop every ~100 miles. I can't skip a Supercharger. They are too far apart to skip one, even in a 100D - so you MUST stop at each charger and charge, usually for a minimum of 15 minutes... now 20+ minutes. On the last road trip I had 2 SC stops (KC to STL), previously, it was a 15m and 20m stop. Now it was 25m and 30m stop. To be fiar, the last charge in the KC to STL direction is to have enough power for the destination travel, but on the way back, the last charge is actually required to get the whole way home, that time was increased from 15m to 25m.

    I opted for the 90 instead of the 85 for the increased range (and presumably less charging time) - I would have waited for the 100 if I had known it was coming. The charging time was a specific criteria I used in purchasing the car, and the car delivered on that in the beginning. It is no longer delivering on that. I will trade charging time for range any day of the week. Hell, I'll take a 150 mile range for a 5m charging time at each stop. That is absolutely a trade I would be willing to make.
     
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  16. Naonak

    Naonak Member

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    I have been slowly reviewing my charge session logs - it looks like my peak rate has slowly been declining over a period of time. Since October, it peaked at 108. In November, it peaked at 100. I haven't taken a road trip since November, so no Supercharging... Now it peaks at 90ish.

    It looks like the counter is progressive - the more DCFC you do, the lower the peak throttling goes - where it stops, nobody knows. Am I going to be throttled at 75 kW at some point? 65 kW? Where's the floor here?
     
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  17. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    ...you mean I don't want my mommy option?

    Maybe there could also be a "you won't care" option.
     
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  18. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    Could you elaborate on how using DC chargers is abuse? OP is mostly using CHAdeMO. How can you abuse CHAdeMO?

    I mean people can buy DC chargers for their homes and some do. Until today that seemed like a perfectly valid use case for the CHAdeMO adapter and Tesla never told us otherwise.

    And what about Supercharging - if you are constantly on the road legitimately, is that abuse too, even if you pay the kWh price? And Tesla already has urban Supercharging in a couple of big cities for the purpose you mention, not just Hong Kong.

    I know I can't change the sympathies some folk naturally have for Tesla, but if this is a real deal, this really needed to be disclosed beforehand. Permanently limiting customer cars based on counters really must be disclosed beforehand or must stop, if true.
     
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  19. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    ...or, just like with the Ludicrous counters, we are witnessing a change in software and/or hardware in later iterations of the car. I mean, there is precedent that Tesla is watching issues crop up over time and has taken belated action through software counters and limiters applied to specific hardware versions.

    It is quite possible both the OP and your brother are right. The question would then be, whose point of view applies going forwards and/or to which cars.
     
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  20. taraquin

    taraquin Member

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    Does it regularly cool Down systems when you are fastcharging? I know Tesla enables active cooling measures when battery-temp exceeds 55C and using AC\heat-pump to cool batteries, at 30-55C it uses passive cooling, but that works better at driving due to airflow. I have experienced once that I got the "systems too hot" while supercharging With 25C outside, the the AC was on for 10 mins and the charging proceeded very slowly.
     

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