If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[islandbayy]

In actuality, yes, the 90kWh packs are really "85's" and the original 85's were really 80's. Technically, Tesla falsely advertised the 85 as a 85 and the 90 as a 90. The 85 should have been originally sold as a 80, and the 90 should really have been sold as a 85.

As per Jason Hughes WK057's digging into the BMS on the cars, he discovered the following:

• Original 60 - ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable.
  
• 85/P85/85D/P85D - ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable
  
• 90D/P90D - ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable
  
• Original 70 - ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable
  
• 75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
  
• Software limited 60/60D - 62.4 kWh usable
  
• Software limited 70/70D - 65.9 kWh usable

Tesla, please stop making up specifications... | wk057's SkieNET...

The only correctly advertised batteries (Not counting software limited) were really the ORIGINAL 60kWh pack, and the current 100kWh pack. The 100kWh pack is really around 101kWh.

Ideally, I'd love it if we could get the original Chemistry cells in the 100kWh pack configuration (more cells and better cooling). That would yield a real world 90ish kWh pack with the reliability, better performance and slower degradation of the original 60's and 85's.

 

[n2mb_racing]

In actuality, yes, the 90kWh packs are really "85's" and the original 85's were really 80's. Technically, Tesla falsely advertised the 85 as a 85 and the 90 as a 90. The 85 should have been originally sold as a 80, and the 90 should really have been sold as a 85.

As per Jason Hughes WK057's digging into the BMS on the cars, he discovered the following:

• Original 60 - ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable.
  
• 85/P85/85D/P85D - ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable
  
• 90D/P90D - ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable
  
• Original 70 - ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable
  
• 75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
  
• Software limited 60/60D - 62.4 kWh usable
  
• Software limited 70/70D - 65.9 kWh usable

Tesla, please stop making up specifications... | wk057's SkieNET...

They seem to have listened, since the 100s are now very close to 100 kwh usable...

 

[Darren S]

Interesting. My P90D started off around 264 and hasn't dropped much, if at all so far.

My 90% is 237-238 and has not changed since I picked it up. However, I did get it with 5k miles on it, so it might have dropped before then. It's been constant to 23k miles. I have not supercharged very much, but sometimes the rates seem slow. Can't say for sure.

I believe the P90D is a different battery pack, yes? My 90D is P/N 1063792-00-A and VIN 121xxx but I don't know if this is Version 1 or Version 2 of the battery pack. I saw some references in this thread previously but either way -- I have the battery pack version that gets throttled and doubt there is a way to have it replaced with the version that doesn't get throttled since, to Tesla, the battery is "performing as intended" even though it isn't performing as they originally sold it to me.

Either way, it used to see 110-115 kW but after ~200 supercharges it is a max of 95 kW. Attached is a pic of my battery sticker.

 

[Darren S]

In actuality, yes, the 90kWh packs are really "85's" and the original 85's were really 80's. Technically, Tesla falsely advertised the 85 as a 85 and the 90 as a 90. The 85 should have been originally sold as a 80, and the 90 should really have been sold as a 85.

Eh, I don't agree that Tesla mis-advertised the battery pack size since they more or less said "Get the 85D and go 272 miles. Get the 90D and go 290 miles." (or whatever the pitch was) I don't know that they ever said, "Get the 90D and you'll have 90 kW available."

I also have a 2015 Volt and it has a 17.1 kWh battery pack. Every Tech owner knows that GM only lets you get ~65% of the rated capacity so the 17.1 kWh battery is only 11.1 kWh usable. Ugh. Why? Most likely so it would last 1 million miles and they'd never need to replace it but having only 40 miles of battery range (at 65% of max battery rating) instead of 55 miles of battery range (at 90% of max battery rating)? It is night and day how an extra 37% of range would greatly help. They increased the battery from 17.1 kWh to 18.4 kWh in the 2017 Volt but might have allowed for more usage as it gets 53 miles instead of 40 miles.

That's why I was ecstatic when Tesla allowed us to get ~90% of the rated capacity so my 90D when new got very close to 81.0 kWh usable. Sometimes slightly over that but close enough to 81 kWh that it was far beyond what most other car makers allow.

 

[n2mb_racing]

I believe the P90D is a different battery pack, yes? My 90D is P/N 1063792-00-A and VIN 121xxx but I don't know if this is Version 1 or Version 2 of the battery pack. I saw some references in this thread previously but either way -- I have the battery pack version that gets throttled and doubt there is a way to have it replaced with the version that doesn't get throttled since, to Tesla, the battery is "performing as intended" even though it isn't performing as they originally sold it to me.

Either way, it used to see 110-115 kW but after ~200 supercharges it is a max of 95 kW. Attached is a pic of my battery sticker.

View attachment 271859

This is out of date, but relevant:
Tesla Model S PxxxD(L) Comparisons (Responses)

There is a better, larger table with all the battery numbers available somewhere... Likely in the other thread about launch mode.

I have 1071394-00-A, which was a "V2" pack.

 

[Alphacrux]

I believe the P90D is a different battery pack, yes? My 90D is P/N 1063792-00-A and VIN 121xxx but I don't know if this is Version 1 or Version 2 of the battery pack. I saw some references in this thread previously but either way -- I have the battery pack version that gets throttled and doubt there is a way to have it replaced with the version that doesn't get throttled since, to Tesla, the battery is "performing as intended" even though it isn't performing as they originally sold it to me.

Either way, it used to see 110-115 kW but after ~200 supercharges it is a max of 95 kW. Attached is a pic of my battery sticker.

View attachment 271859

My p90d is throttled to 95 kw also, after three long distance trips over two years. Makes it hugely inconvenient to take this long distance now. I need to check my battery pack version.

 

[n2mb_racing]

My p90d is throttled to 95 kw also, after three long distance trips over two years. Makes it hugely inconvenient to take this long distance now. I need to check my battery pack version.

I hit 109 kW on my P90D as of May 2017, but I haven't supercharged since then.

 

[tga]

deally, I'd love it if we could get the original Chemistry cells in the 100kWh pack configuration (more cells and better cooling). That would yield a real world 90ish kWh pack with the reliability, better performance and slower degradation of the original 60's and 85's.

Are the 100's subject to the same throttling as the 90's? I've only heard this discussed re: the 90's

 

[Naonak]

Thought I'd chime in here again;

My charge rate is limited to 94kW.

Previous firmware release (Prior to the Christmas Easter Egg), I could easily MAINTAIN 90kW charge rate or higher to 60% SOC. Immediately, with the Christmas Easter Egg firmware (Don't have exact firmware number on me), i cannot get over 80kW at 50% SOC.
A 0-90% charge at a supercharger is now taking a minimum of 30 minutes longer. Total number of Supercharges on this car since March 2016 (its a 90D) is ~200. My old MS60 with the old Chemistry, had over 450 Supercharges in it's ~80,000 that I had it, no calculatable range loss, and no reduction in charge rates. In fact, the Supercharger speed INCREASED on a number of firmware revisions with that car.
My 90D is at 51,000 miles, my original range was 294, now, 270. BMS reports my packs max capacity of 77.8 kWh

If you have a 90 pack and 200 Supercharges, you are definitely throttled. The throttle happens pretty early given the number of charges.

I made a thread with my comparison of pre and post throttle for the same trip (and weather, speed, etc...) ... see below for more on this.

Interesting. My P90D started off around 264 and hasn't dropped much, if at all so far.

My 90% is 237-238 and has not changed since I picked it up. However, I did get it with 5k miles on it, so it might have dropped before then. It's been constant to 23k miles. I have not supercharged very much, but sometimes the rates seem slow. Can't say for sure.

That's where my 90% has always been as well... I've never seen it above 264 at 100%. My other two (P85, P85D) both max charge to about 256 miles. The 90 pack is kind of a joke... there's about as much usable capacity in a 85 pack as there is in a 90 pack. My 90 pack has 77.5 kWh usable, and my 85's have 76 kWh usable.

I believe the P90D is a different battery pack, yes? My 90D is P/N 1063792-00-A and VIN 121xxx but I don't know if this is Version 1 or Version 2 of the battery pack. I saw some references in this thread previously but either way -- I have the battery pack version that gets throttled and doubt there is a way to have it replaced with the version that doesn't get throttled since, to Tesla, the battery is "performing as intended" even though it isn't performing as they originally sold it to me.

Either way, it used to see 110-115 kW but after ~200 supercharges it is a max of 95 kW. Attached is a pic of my battery sticker.

View attachment 271859

There is no 90 pack that doesn't get throttled. The only difference between V1, V2, and V3 packs are the amount of current it can output to allow you to get the 0 - 60 2.8s time. If you have a V3 pack, you can theoretically get 2.8s. If you have a V1 or V2 pack, it's impossible to get that advertised time.

From my anecdotal and very flawed evidence, the 106 series is V1, the 107 series is V2 and the 108 Series is V3. In your case, you have a V1 pack, I believe. If you don't care about the 0 - 60 times, that pack should theoretically last longer than a similarly used V3 pack. Regardless, all 3 will be throttled at some point in the future.

With regards to Supercharging times, I made a thread that compared the added time. It is within the 5 - 7 minutes quoted by Tesla. There was some firmware changes for charging buffer and the taper curves that make it seem like the charging takes significantly longer. But it's all smoke and mirrors... the actual charging times with a throttled 90 pack are indeed about 5 minutes on average per stop.

Look up my thread if you want the raw data.

 

[TexasEV]

My p90d is throttled to 95 kw also, after three long distance trips over two years. Makes it hugely inconvenient to take this long distance now. I need to check my battery pack version.

Hugely inconvenient? I have a 60 and that's the max power it can take. I have no problem doing long distance trips (such as Austin to Yosemite last summer).

A peak charge of >95kW would only last a few minutes, and only for an almost completely depleted battery. You're talking about a few minutes difference at a supercharger stop. Some of those stops you'll likely be eating and the car will be done before you are anyway. I think this limitation would fall more towards the "barely noticeable" than the "hugely inconvenient" end of the spectrum.

 

[n2mb_racing]

If you have a 90 pack and 200 Supercharges, you are definitely throttled. The throttle happens pretty early given the number of charges.

I made a thread with my comparison of pre and post throttle for the same trip (and weather, speed, etc...) ... see below for more on this.



That's where my 90% has always been as well... I've never seen it above 264 at 100%. My other two (P85, P85D) both max charge to about 256 miles. The 90 pack is kind of a joke... there's about as much usable capacity in a 85 pack as there is in a 90 pack. My 90 pack has 77.5 kWh usable, and my 85's have 76 kWh usable.



There is no 90 pack that doesn't get throttled. The only difference between V1, V2, and V3 packs are the amount of current it can output to allow you to get the 0 - 60 2.8s time. If you have a V3 pack, you can theoretically get 2.8s. If you have a V1 or V2 pack, it's impossible to get that advertised time.

From my anecdotal and very flawed evidence, the 106 series is V1, the 107 series is V2 and the 108 Series is V3. In your case, you have a V1 pack, I believe. If you don't care about the 0 - 60 times, that pack should theoretically last longer than a similarly used V3 pack. Regardless, all 3 will be throttled at some point in the future.

With regards to Supercharging times, I made a thread that compared the added time. It is within the 5 - 7 minutes quoted by Tesla. There was some firmware changes for charging buffer and the taper curves that make it seem like the charging takes significantly longer. But it's all smoke and mirrors... the actual charging times with a throttled 90 pack are indeed about 5 minutes on average per stop.

Look up my thread if you want the raw data.

Good data and good points.

The 90 pack does offer more peak power than the 85, so that's an improvement that I'm a fan of. I don't use supercharging that much, but I do use the 0-60 acceleration a lot.

I manage about 2.6s 0-60 with a V2 pack drawing 480 - 490 kW. The v3 pack supplies a hair more power at ~505 kW. I think they might get to 2.5s 0-60 (including 1 ft rollout).

But yeah, I'm not planning to keep my P90D long term, and will trade it in at the end of the lease....

 

[DarkMatter]

Some people use hyperbole to support their cause. I find it objectionable, but it's a common style of rhetoric. Let them have it, it matters to them and you got the point.

Have you all looked at the ABRP thread linked a few pages back? Indeed the 90 packs appear to be throttled to a top rate that is lower than the 85 and 100 packs. They have much more area under the curve than the 85 packs do, so any Supercharger session where you need to go over 60% looks to be better with a 90 pack than with an 85. It's interesting how different the curves are for the different packs. The 100 is a real winner though, the one you want if you plan to do long trips, as it holds the high rates for much longer.

 

[Naonak]

Good data and good points.

The 90 pack does offer more peak power than the 85, so that's an improvement that I'm a fan of. I don't use supercharging that much, but I do use the 0-60 acceleration a lot.

I manage about 2.6s 0-60 with a V2 pack drawing 480 - 490 kW. The v3 pack supplies a hair more power at ~505 kW. I think they might get to 2.5s 0-60 (including 1 ft rollout).

But yeah, I'm not planning to keep my P90D long term, and will trade it in at the end of the lease....

What mods have you done to get 2.6s?

 

[n2mb_racing]

What mods have you done to get 2.6s?

Nothing. stock.

 

[Galve2000]

I work out, that when I do my cross-country road trip this year, as I do every year, it will take me about 12 hours LONGER for charging, due to #1, slower charge rates, and #2, degradation of the pack (Which Tesla has repeatably said is normal and compares to the other 90kWh packs in the fleet.....) requiring me to do a much much much slower 100% charge at more stops then doing a faster 80% or 90% charge. And most likely dropping speeds considerably in the winter to keep consumption lower.

I will do a 4 way Split Screen video.

I will be awaiting very keenly both your next big multi-day trip and your Split screen video.

 

[supratachophobia]

Thought I'd chime in here again;

My charge rate is limited to 94kW.

Previous firmware release (Prior to the Christmas Easter Egg), I could easily MAINTAIN 90kW charge rate or higher to 60% SOC. Immediately, with the Christmas Easter Egg firmware (Don't have exact firmware number on me), i cannot get over 80kW at 50% SOC.
A 0-90% charge at a supercharger is now taking a minimum of 30 minutes longer. Total number of Supercharges on this car since March 2016 (its a 90D) is ~200. My old MS60 with the old Chemistry, had over 450 Supercharges in it's ~80,000 that I had it, no calculatable range loss, and no reduction in charge rates. In fact, the Supercharger speed INCREASED on a number of firmware revisions with that car.
My 90D is at 51,000 miles, my original range was 294, now, 270. BMS reports my packs max capacity of 77.8 kWh

I work out, that when I do my cross-country road trip this year, as I do every year, it will take me about 12 hours LONGER for charging, due to #1, slower charge rates, and #2, degradation of the pack (Which Tesla has repeatably said is normal and compares to the other 90kWh packs in the fleet.....) requiring me to do a much much much slower 100% charge at more stops then doing a faster 80% or 90% charge. And most likely dropping speeds considerably in the winter to keep consumption lower.

I find your stats creepily similar. I'm at just under 51k, 90D, 270/271 for full charge, 294 new, nominal full 78.3kw. I need to check the supercharger count because I'm no where near as high as 200 though. If I had to guess, I'd say 50 total supercharger sessions over 2 years so far. But I'll look.

 

[supratachophobia]

Mine was first limited after about 40 or 50 supercharges, summer 2016. Build was also Jan 2016 for my 90D.

I can still hit 94kW max rate, but it drops below that before I hit 50% SOC now as of the Christmas Easter Egg firmware.
I have video recordings going from 0-80% SOC when the car was new, first limited, recently, and will make another again now. I will do a 4 way Split Screen video.

Also, I do have BMS access (To see data). I have ruled out Temperature and balance of the pack. As well as over-heating charging handles.

I have BMS access as well, and the throttled charges don't seem to be the cause of an over heated pack or misbalanced module.

 

[FlatSix911]

Original 60 - ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable.
85/P85/85D/P85D - ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable
90D/P90D - ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable
Original 70 - ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable
75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
Software limited 60/60D - 62.4 kWh usable
Software limited 70/70D - 65.9 kWh usable
The only correctly advertised batteries (Not counting software limited) were really the ORIGINAL 60kWh pack, and the current 100kWh pack. The 100kWh pack is really around 101kWh.

The original 70 battery pack was also correctly advertised with a reported 71.2 kWh capacity.
I am still seeing a 114 kW supercharging rate with approximately 30K miles on the clock...
.

 

[Naonak]

Nothing. stock.

Then I don't see how it's possible for you to get 2.6s in a P90DL, much less with a V2 battery. It's just not possible. The power isn't there.

 

[Alphacrux]

Hugely inconvenient? I have a 60 and that's the max power it can take. I have no problem doing long distance trips (such as Austin to Yosemite last summer).

A peak charge of >95kW would only last a few minutes, and only for an almost completely depleted battery. You're talking about a few minutes difference at a supercharger stop. Some of those stops you'll likely be eating and the car will be done before you are anyway. I think this limitation would fall more towards the "barely noticeable" than the "hugely inconvenient" end of the spectrum.

It is, actually, once you are used to charging at 115 kw peak, even if there is a slow decline from there. Last trip back to Austin from California is when we saw the throttling to 95 kw. Most stops were shorter, with only bathroom breaks. Of course the throttling wasn’t a problem during lunch.

I’ve noticed that the new 100 pack accepts over 115 kw at somewhat under half charge and stays above 100kw much longer. Hoping that the new 100 packs are not subject to the same throttling as the 90s.

edit> I suppose I should change my language from ‘hugely inconvenient’ to ‘mildly annoying’. It’s all what you are used to.