If you fast charge, Tesla will permanently throttle charging

[AnxietyRanger]

My point was, that calculation of 18 KW chademo (if they are calculated) is very stupid, because with dualchargers, you get more than that.

Unless the nature of the DC charging process is somehow different (more harmful) and not just about kW?

 

[SageBrush]

NEWS FLASH: Quick charging is harder on the battery than slow(er) charging.

Not much stress each time, but it is cumulative. So DC charge when it is necessary but not simply because it is available.

Who wudda thunk ?!?

 

[TexasEV]

Two points that need emphasis:
1. It's physics and chemistry, not a Tesla conspiracy.
2. Even for those less than 1% of cars that would be affected by supercharging being 5 minutes slower, that's no slower than when supercharging was introduced.

People are spending more time obsessing over this than the few extra minutes that a very small percentage of them might spend supercharging

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Two points that need emphasis:
1. It's physics and chemistry, not a Tesla conspiracy.

Not readily disclosing this beforehand is not physics or chemistry, nor is it inevitable.

2. Even for those less than 1% of cars that would be affected by supercharging being 5 minutes slower, that's no slower than when superchsrging was introduced.

People are spending more time obsessing over this than the few extra minutes that a very small percentage of them might spend supercharging

Perhaps, we shall see what the reception is. But if this was no issue (it may well be no issue), why was it not disclosed in the manual or information posted online so that people would know, before hay was made about it?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

NEWS FLASH: Quick charging is harder on the battery than slow(er) charging.

Not much stress each time, but it is cumulative. So DC charge when it is necessary but not simply because it is available.

Who wudda thunk ?!?

Battery degradation is one thing. But in these cases it seems it is not degradation (natural wear and tear) that triggered this, but some active process in the car's systems.

This is what is news here and now confirmed by Tesla. Yes, now we know using DC charging is bad for your Tesla. I still say a reasonably diligent person did not know that beforehand. It was not mentioned in the manual(s). People should have been told.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm pretty much done with this thread, but wake me up when a FAQ is available. I would like to know if throttling due to high DC use has more than one step and out of curiosity why ChaDemo is included.

And as an aside, this information does put a damper on Elon's hints of charging rates way higher than ~120 kWh, at least for battery chemistries and charging protocols as we now have.

 

[TexasEV]

The problem with only 1% of customers experiencing this is that without more information, 100% of DC charging customers fear they are next.

No, I think most people who DC charge know they're not in the 99th percentile of DC charging use. And whatever the less than 1% are experiencing isn't something to fear. Aren't you the one who thinks idle charges start too soon? Why is supercharging for 45 min. vs. 40 min. such a big deal?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm pretty much done with this thread, but wake me up when a FAQ is available. I would like to know if throttling due to high DC use has more than one step and out of curiosity why ChaDemo is included.

And as an aside, this information does put a damper on Elon's hints of charging rates way higher than ~120 kWh, at least for battery chemistries and charging protocols as we now have.

2170s may be better than the current cells, so one more reason to wait for the Model 3.

 

[Panu]

Before I have considered 40kW Chademo charging pretty harmless for 85 battery. Instead I have avoided charging to 100% and usually keep my battery at 50% when driving locally.

Now based on comments from Tesla it sounds like the only thing that is harmful to battery is DC charging even at moderate charging power. Sounds a bit strange to me.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No, I think most people who DC charge know they're not in the 99th percentile of DC charging use. And whatever the less than 1% are experiencing isn't something to fear. Aren't you the one who thinks idle charges start too soon. Why is supercharging for 45 min. vs. 40 min. such a big deal?

Curiously, I find the current idle charges problematic for much the same reason as I find this DC charging throttling problematic. If a system has clear penalties (not just usual wear and tear type of thing), it should be well understood so that reasonably diligent people can avoid it. Idle charge system as it stands has been IMO confusing (unpredictable ending times for charging, once-a-year payments) and with surprise-potential.

If DC charging is bad for you, tell us how, when and put a visible counter in the car so that we can weigh our options and understand how this happens. Better yet, implement a paid maintenance regime to keep things working. If one intentionally wants to keep it vague, it will be confusing for people and that may have negative consequences.

Being upfront about things may of course also have negative consequences, but that is just the right thing to do... I have no problem with anything (idle charges and DC throttling included) as long as people are upfront about it before purchase and things are set up in such a manner that a reasonably diligent person knows what they are doing and can make educated choices.

 

[thefortunes]

Two points that need emphasis:
1. It's physics and chemistry, not a Tesla conspiracy.
2. Even for those less than 1% of cars that would be affected by supercharging being 5 minutes slower, that's no slower than when superchsrging was introduced.

People are spending more time obsessing over this than the few extra minutes that a very small percentage of them might spend supercharging

I agree with this, however I am curious why it is not being applied to all cars with high DC charger usage (like my brother's, which has at least 4x the amount of high speed DC charging as the OP).

Is it specifically a battery iteration or chemistry that is more at risk?

Is it CHAdeMO (which OP uses but my brother does not)?

 

[thegruf]

If I recall correctly, the prodiminant aging characteristic measurable for Li Ion batteries is internal resistance which increases with age.

This resistance in turn generates internal heat either during rapid charge or discharge which if unchecked could cause more rapid degradation. Hopefully I a right in thinking this is what the BMC monitors.

It ought to be a straightforward process to balance lifespan vs high power usage in that case.
What may also be a parameter here is that maybe Tesla are being compelled to be slightly more assertive with this curve on some battery chemistries used over time as they internal HALT testing reveals more information on the curves. Honestly I don't think Tesla have to reveal this even if it is the case, it is sufficent for them to say that they have firmware strategies in place to manage charge/discharge rates to preserve battery life.

However, like others I do hope Tesla is not just using crude session counters for this purpose.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I agree with this, however I am curious why it is not being applied to all cars with high DC charger usage (like my brother's, which has at least 4x the amount of high speed DC charging as the OP).

Is it specifically a battery iteration or chemistry that is more at risk?

Is it CHAdeMO (which OP uses but my brother does not)?

Your brothers car, by the way, isn't still on 7.1?

 

[thefortunes]

Your brothers car, by the way, isn't still on 7.1?

No, and he wasn't the only such report in this thread.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

No, and he wasn't the only such report in this thread.

Thank you. Yes and I acknowledge we have only one 85 kWh report of throtting (several reports of no throttling) and four(ish) from 90 kWh cars.

I am just trying to figure out if this could be related to counters being added in later firmwares. Has your brothers Supercharging use remained as frequent since 8.0 update? I assume it has, but just asking to be sure.

 

[thefortunes]

Thank you. Yes and I acknowledge we have only one 85 kWh report of throtting (several reports of no throttling) and four(ish) from 90 kWh cars.

I am just trying to figure out if this could be related to counters being added in later firmwares. Has your brothers Supercharging use remained as frequent since 8.0 update? I assume it has, but just asking to be sure.

Yep. He still drives 300 miles a day and SuC twice.

 

[NerdUno]

Oh.. the free loaders?

Do you even bother to read posts from individuals that don't agree with you? Your personal attacks are tiresome!

 

[Skipdd]

You are applying your set of values to the OPs situation, here. I don't see how that is ever relevant in a conversation, other than as a comment on your own values. Telling others how to value things or live their lives is no concern of ours, as it is a personal angle to take. Whatever the OP values, is for him to decide. Whatever his emotions, they are his. For all I know, using the CHAdeMO charger takes him less time than using an AC charger, or the same. I don't know how he lives, what his options are and it is all quite irrelevant.

Actually, it is also quite irrelevant also that the OP is displeased with the delay in his long-range driving. I can sympathize a fellow TMC member, but that alone would be of no concern of mine. What we - unless we want to make this personal - should IMO concern ourselves with are the facts that matter in a broader sense:

1) Was the OP using the car as recommended by the manfacturer?
2) Is the OP being truthful?
3) How long is Supercharging really slowed down by throttling?
4) Has manufacturer disclosed everything they need to regarding charging?
5) And finally, what would an average, reasonable person think about all this?

Judgement calls like where the OP likes to spend his time or how he values time are completely irrelevant and highly personal. We are all humans and we feel differently about things. And it is OK. What should concern us are the facts.

That's why @ohmman 's point about the real delay caused by throttling and its significance overall was a fair point in my opinion. The individual emotions attached to numbers vary from person to person, but putting a number on it, is something that helps pinpoint the facts. How big of a throttling is speculated to be employed here? Once we have that, we can of course discuss what the average, reasonable response would be.



Irrelevant. First of all, we don't know what the throttling limit is, he might have gotten there through Supercharging eventually as well. But most importantly, if he was not advised by manufacturer or reasonable common knowledge to avoid DC charging, then all this is hindsight and of no actual value - his missing the limitations would thus have been a co-incidence, not the result of any knowing action.

Seeing that even places like TMC discuss DC charging at home as a viable option, it was not common knowledge or advised by manufacturer to avoid CHAdeMO use. DC charging has mostly been avoided because of its limited availability (highly region dependent, though), not because it was known to be something to avoid.

As I read this I am reminded of a lesson I learned from a manager many years ago - "Facts are our friends.." Unless you are a politician (some)

 

[Panu]

Yep. He still drives 300 miles a day and SuC twice.

Which battery does he have in his car and how long has he driven like this (sorry if I missed this info earlier in the thread)?

 

[yobigd20]

While the company's giving us information reactively (to a discussion thread) is not as desirable as giving it proactively, I'm glad Tesla made a comment and (for my part) thank them for it.

AFAIK Jon has not given us any "new" information that Tesla hadnt already told us in the past. He was simply "clarifying" it to the community again, so I don't consider his response as reactive at all. Yes, currently technology Cells degrade over time as their chemistry changes. We all know this. This implies lower capacity and slower supercharge rates as the batteries age with time and usage. It's the same reason 60s can't charge as fast as 85s , because their capacity is lower. As the 85s capacity degrades, they too will eventually slow down.

What he clearly didn't mention was any simplistic "counter" of "if numSuperChargePlugins > N, then maxRate=90kWh". I believe all of that hype was a simplistic misinterpretation by "less technological minds" of the actual algorithm that is based on remaining current capacity.