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If you were adding an EVSE charge station for use by all EVers....

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by Webeevdrivers, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Member

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    We are finishing off the garage and want to add an EVSE that would be useful to all EVers including TESLA owners. Although we are an all EV family (2016 30 KW leaf SV and a smart ED) we want to add a higher power EVSE available to any EV. This is mostly for future proofing but also because it allows us to contribute to the EV community. Not being a Tesla owner I don't know if for example an 80 amp EVSE is useful or if the adaptors that Tesla users use to connect to J1772 can handle that current.

    We currently have a Nema 14-50 receptacle and a Juice box 40 amp unit in the garage. We have a total of 100 amps available to the EVSE circuit.

    Take me to school Telsa folks. What is the best way to do this so it works for you guys. The rest is easy. Product suggestions welcome.
     
  2. Curt

    Curt Roadster Signature #55

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    Clipper Creek CS100, without a doubt.

    Delivers 80Amps, super reliable, and absolutely any EV with J1772, either native or adaptor, can use it.
     
    • Like x 5
  3. BrettS

    BrettS Member

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    Not to over simplify too much, but older tesla’s came with a 40 amp charger and could be upgraded to 80 amps. Newer ones come with a 48 amp charger and can be upgraded to 72 amps. So yes, some tesla’s will be able to handle up to 80 amps, but certainly not all of them. If you make 80 amps available you’ll definitely have everyone covered up to their max rate, but if you’re tight on power then 48 amps would be the max that the majority of tesla’s can take.
     
  4. Petra

    Petra Member

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    The sticker on the J1772 to Tesla adapter housing says it's rated for 80A, so that's not an issue.
     
  5. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    Yes some Tesla's can charge at up to 80 Amps. But I don't think it's a good idea to put in 80 Ampere chargers. It's a waste of resources. If you have an 80 Amp station, you might get the occasional Tesla that is happy but does he need it that fast?
    An 80 Amp charger needs twice as much resources and twice as expensive cables and other equipment. For the most part it will be used by the average EV which maxes out at 30 Ampere. You payed the extra money for that station and the majority of the time it will not be used to it's max. For almost the same money you could have built two charging stations with each 40 Amp max and serve two EVs at the same time using the same resources.
     
    • Disagree x 4
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  6. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Member

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    You make some good points. So probably something between the 40 that we have and the 80 max. We want to put our 40 in our travel bag as we have all the various adapters and can plug it into anything. Probably something around a 60 will be a good permanent wall charger replacement for us and give us some future proofing for our next car which is about 3 to 4 years away. The sun country/clipper creeks look good but not sure if they are wifi controllable. I'll check it out.

    Appreciate the opinions.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    I started with the same position: EVSE for our cars and a useful public charge point. I decided on J1772 and a 50A (40A continuous) 14-50 outlet. In six months only one traveling EV considered coming by to charge and in the end chose an RV park next to their hotel instead. We are only 2-3 miles off the beaten path and about 5 miles from the town centre, but it is enough to just not make the public access very useful since no matter how many couple dozen more Amps are being pushed the car owners are probably looking at a couple hour wait in a residential area.

    So for at least for us, the public access is worthwhile so that EVs have an emergency outlet but it is unlikely to be part of a considered EV trip plan.
     
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  8. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Member

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    Yah. I hear ya. This is obviously primarily for us and solves two problems. A mobile hi power EVSE and a replacement garage mounted unit that is high enough capacity to future proof us for our next car (maybe a tesla with a higher charge rate than our 6.6 KW leaf).

    Having said that, our town house is a couple blocks from a dense shopping area and I'm sure it would be convenient for someone who has an hour or two of shopping to do. A 60 amp local charger might be handy for them and we have an extra spot in the driveway so why not. Generally people are nice and it's nice to be able to look out for each other.

    Cheers.
     
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  9. arnis

    arnis Member

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    The number of 40+Amp EV's will grow very little (compared to what is going to happen with mass market EV's).
    So I will explain what will likely happen during next 10 years or so.
    First of all, PHEV (plugin hybrids) sales will skyrocket. Those who do not feel themselves comfortable with range limitation,
    they will choose this option as oldschool vehicles will be slowly phased out anyway. Pretty much all PHEV's do
    not support rapid charging and only slow charging. Mostly due to smaller batteries that are not able to charge fast.
    Most PHEV's will charge at 3.3kW (16A), some MIGHT be have an option of 32A onboard charger, though that will be rare.
    And these vehicles want EVSE's the most. As their battery is the smallest and runs out easily.

    Short range (100 miles) and medium range (200 miles) EV's will be the main market of EV's.
    Both are for price sensitive customers. Majority of short range EV's have 16A on board charger. And people usually
    don't pay extra for 32A charger as rapid charging station network grows anyway. Early adopters preferred 32A due to lack of rapid charging stations.
    Medium range vehicles do usually have 32A (or 40A in case of Tesla) onboard charger. And no 40+A options are
    expected on those vehicles, including Tesla Model 3.
    Long range vehicles (300 miles and more) don't actually need EVSE's much (away from home). Those will need rapid charging network mostly at specific places on the route (with amenities). And even these vehicles will have up to 10kW chargers as standard. Tesla now
    removed the option to spec up to higher onboard charger with smaller battery vehicle.
    Long range vehicles will be rare. Less than 5% of the whole market. Most manufacturers will not even offer those.
    There is also a technical reason why Level 2 onboard chargers will be up to 10kW (11kW non-US).
    Due to inefficiencies it is unreasonable to have active cooling activated while charging at EVSE. As cooling requires
    100-200W of extra power (fans).

    Therefore I do not recommend going too crazy with EVSE maximum output. Rather have at least 2 available spots.
    It's also fine to have two 40A EVSE and one Nema 14-50 socket. Probability of running out of 100A is extremely small,
    even with 3 vehicles charging at the same time. Like I said, almost all vehicles will charge between 16A and 32A.
    Teslas will not be the most widespread vehicles with a plug. They will have the longest range though, on average:)

    PS. Don't forget to add a 110V outlet. Some smaller electric machines might have a visit, including bicycles, segways, etc.
     
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  10. Curt

    Curt Roadster Signature #55

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    From where I stand, ALL "older Teslas" came with 70Amp chargers. ;)
     
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  11. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Member

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    Thanks Arnis. Interesting perspective. The 50 amp Nema 14-50 amp will continue to remain available as will the 15. I think we'll continue to lean towards the sun country highway / clipper creek 60 amp unit. I'm not sure there is a wifi version though. I would like something like the juice box wifi interface but in a Canadian product. I have a little more research to do.
     
  12. KJD

    KJD Supporting Member

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    The clipper creek is a good choice. Well made and reasonable cost.
    What do you plan to do with the WIFI access?
     
  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    I have the Clipper Creek without wi-fi and do not miss it much. I certainly appreciate the rock-solid reliability.
    I think Juice sells an doodad that attaches to the J1772 and provides wi-fi, a choice if you are not too concerned over theft.
     
  14. dhrivnak

    dhrivnak Active Member

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    I disagree as I would put in the most you can easily afford. Both ClipperCreek and Tesla allow you to share a circuit adding two chargers on a 100 amp circuit. If one car plugs in you can pull a full 80 amps if you can. But if a second plugs in they drop to 40 amps each. This is normally an easy set up and gives you the best of both worlds. And yes I really like the Clipper Creek chargers.
     
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  15. SageBrush

    SageBrush Active Member

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    This is all very locale dependent, but since I own the two *EV types you think will be the most common, I'll comment:

    We use our LEAF for duties within the radius of our home EVSE, and to places where L2 charging is walking distance to where we want to shop/leisure. Our PHEV is used for longer distances and in general I do not expect to charge it away from home if the inconvenience is high.

    When we own a Model 3 it will mostly use SuperChargers away from home.

    PlugShare is quickly becoming deprecated in general, but probably slower in Canada than the US.
     
  16. MikeBur

    MikeBur ManualPilot

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    Interesting. How does this work? Is it that the CC is master and HPWC slaves off it? I know the new HWPCs have load-sharing capability, though less aware of your config. My current setup is now 80A capable (100A line) Tesla HPWC and now using Tony's adapter (JDapter Stub) for J1772 / PlugShare use, though am likely getting an used Leaf soon for my learner child.
     
  17. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Member

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    The wifi access makes it more versatile. Allows for remote scheduling. monitoring etc. Also allows it to be dialed back in terms of current. The juice box is very good at this an we find the features useful, especially in a portable type application. Probably less important in a hard wired situation.
     
  18. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    Sorry but this is wrong information. Older Teslas all came with 70A charging, and those cars don't have Supercharging capability so they really appreciate 70A when traveling. The next batch of Teslas delivered after that were all 80A charging (Sig Model S).

    Yes, he or she does need it that fast. If it's your home you don't need it fast but if you're traveling and have to wait for your car to charge, you need the fastest charging possible. I don't think you've taken many road trips in a Tesla where you couldn't use Supercharging.

    The fact that most cars don't have charging capability beyond 32 or 40A is also a bad reason to install a small charger. 30A is easy to obtain in many public places for cars like that. But the most likely candidates to use your charger are people who need more because they're taking a long trip. They don't want to wait any longer than they have to, and you don't want them at your house any longer than necessary. Please offer them 70 or 80A.

    I have both 70 and 80A charging available on Plugshare at my house. Before the local supercharger went in I got a lot of people stopping here. They never would have made the trip if I only offered 48A or less. Last year about this time 2 cars stopped here on their way around the world. It was a lot of fun to meet these people and have lunch with them. They never would have considered putting me on their itinerary if I didn't offer 80A charging.
     
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  19. Ugliest1

    Ugliest1 S85: "Sparky"

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    I live in a condo and in 2013 persuaded the strata council to install two EVSE's into their spare (thank goodness!!) 100A breaker. I looked at everything available, and the combination of least expensive (almost), least hassle, no ongoing connectivity bills for monitoring use (a la Chargepoint), and simple plug and play led me to Sun Country (who use Clipper Creek). We put in a 40A (delivers 32A continuous) and a 60A (delivers 48A continuous). However the whole business case was developed on two chargers to spread the wealth to more than one EV owner; for you, there is validity installing only one 100A (or 90A) EVSE for speedier charging on the cars that can take it.

    Since, at the time, the BC government was granting a rebate for EVSE installs in MURBs, they required a way to log usage. For that, we installed an eGauge (eGauge Systems, 4730 Walnut St, Boulder CO) but also purchased that through Sun Country. It is Wifi-able, but in my case where the electrical room is, wifi won't reach it (I have to use my phone as a hotspot).

    In the 3.5 years since, both EVSEs have worked flawlessly and seamlessly. I recommend Sun Country without reservation.
     
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  20. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    If I were you:
    Put in two 50a breakers
    Put in two 14-50R outlets
    Use one 40 amp 14-50P L2 J1772 in one of the outlets. (your JuiceBox)

    14-50 is rated at 40a continuous duty, not 48a.
    40a will put over 25 miles of range per hour on any EV made.

    AFAIK, Teslas come with a UMC that will use a 14-50 outlet, so you don't need a HPWC.
    Other EVs come with chargers as well, but they tend to be 5-15. So a 14-50R > 5-15R adapter would finish the trick if you need to charge 2 J1772's. There is a special adapter you can make or buy that allows GM (and perhaps other) OEM ESVEs feed 240v for faster charging.
     

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