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I'm a dealer and Tesla removed my car's FSD

GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,162
714
UK
This vehicle had FSD enabled when I previewed the car. I sat in the car and verified it. After the sale, Tesla reverted it back to standard AP.
Forget what the car said, what paperwork did you have describing the car? Its becoiming increasingly well known that Tesla change the spec, its increasingly well known that the update can be late to be reflected in the car, its what the paperwork says describing the car that might give the clue to what you're getting. If you got nothing other than "Tesla Model S, sold as seen" then I can understand your frustration it was "seen with FSD", if the dsscription is "Tesla Model S, clean title. 34k miles, registered 5 March 2019, Midnight Silver, Black premium interior, sunroof, autopilot, etc..." then you're being told what your getting and with respect you'd need to understand that as a professional dealer, however frustrating tesla is.
 
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DJVoorhees

Member
Jun 16, 2019
298
162
New Jersey
There are other stories like this one but as a dealer I wanted to share a unique, negative experience I'm having.

My very small dealership purchased a 2018 Tesla Model 3 at Manheim auto auction recently. The vehicle was advertised showing FSD in the images included during the sale. I verified FSD was still enabled during the allotted vehicle preview time, which is the opportunity buyers are given to look over cars since most sales are basically "as is."

Background - Manheim is an auto auction similar to eBay for dealers. They connect wholesale buyers (me) with wholesale sellers (Tesla, in this case).

I bought the car during the auction and payment cleared the following day. When I went to pickup the vehicle, the car has somehow been downgraded already to simply "Autopilot." I didn't know this could be done over the air, or so quickly. I suspect I was targeted in the quick removal, but that's more to the story than I want to get into right now.

I am now trying to fight Tesla through Manheim's arbitration service where I can try to dispute the sale. Unfortunately, Manheim has very little incentive to help a small dealer like me instead of their huge client Tesla. So far, they have refused to void the sale or support my claim.

In my opinion, this practice is deceitful and greedy on Tesla's part. It was especially bad when it happens to retail customers, but I really see this example as clear cut. They advertised the car with the feature and then removed it immediately after sale.

Tesla should be forced to deliver the car in the same condition with the same options as when it Was "advertised" during preview. They should remove the feature before the vehicle is offered for sale to dealers if they intend to downgrade the car. I think they have that right, it just needs to be done in a way that is clearly disclosed to the buyer. It's as if I buy a used Tesla from their own website, it says the car includes FSD, but then they deliver a car without the feature.

The auction is enabling this whole loop hole by burying their head in the sand. They refuse to acknowledge FSD as a feature of the car and instead are viewing it as a subscription similar to Sirius XM. Tesla is exploiting this at the expense of dealers, and often those dealer's retail buyers.

I'm pretty sure the auction won't help me out. My only option is probably getting a lawyer, just in case anyone knows one that is working this issue for retail buyers already.

I love the cars, but what a terrible policy.

Tesla is so scummy, terrible.


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Jughead135

Member
Feb 19, 2020
204
90
Georgia
If Tesla (or any other car trader, really) bought back a car, swapped out the wheels, and resold it, no one would complain. If they removed an audio package and replaced it with a stock unit, that would be fine too. Swap tires? Yeah, that too. Remove trim package?

I would argue that only your last analogy is (somewhat) accurate. In removing the FSD software option, they're not "swapping out" wheels, tires, radios, etc.--they're removing an add-on option altogether.

I realize that Tesla does not have a lot of "factory options" on new vehicles, so I'll just use the first example that springs to mind: say the car had the rear spoiler when ordered new. That car was presented as such, and the OP relied on the "as-is" description & his inspection of the vehicle that it did, in fact, have the spoiler. The OP buys the car. Some time between the sale closing and the car being delivered, Tesla removes the spoiler. That's a major foul.

If Tesla wants to sell a car they own without a spoiler, they're perfectly free to remove that spoiler, then market the car "as-is" with no spoiler. That doesn't sound like what has happened here. I hope the OP gets satisfaction--ideally in a way to help Tesla realize the error of their ways.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,521
5,468
I would argue that only your last analogy is (somewhat) accurate. In removing the FSD software option, they're not "swapping out" wheels, tires, radios, etc.--they're removing an add-on option altogether.

I realize that Tesla does not have a lot of "factory options" on new vehicles, so I'll just use the first example that springs to mind: say the car had the rear spoiler when ordered new. That car was presented as such, and the OP relied on the "as-is" description & his inspection of the vehicle that it did, in fact, have the spoiler. The OP buys the car. Some time between the sale closing and the car being delivered, Tesla removes the spoiler. That's a major foul.

If Tesla wants to sell a car they own without a spoiler, they're perfectly free to remove that spoiler, then market the car "as-is" with no spoiler. That doesn't sound like what has happened here. I hope the OP gets satisfaction--ideally in a way to help Tesla realize the error of their ways.
The only difference I guess is in that analogy is that they are buying it from the auction house (subject to the terms and conditions of the auction house), not Tesla directly. It could be for example, Tesla telling the auction house they are selling the car without the spoiler (and will remove it when it successfully sells), the auction house selling the car "as-is" and Tesla then taking off the spoiler after the sale concludes.
 

brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,908
6,398
Austin, TX
Seems the FSD subscription was valid until the sale occurred. Since the subscription is non-transferable, it was cancelled upon sale.
FSD subscription is ALWAYS transferrable, unless Tesla owns the car. Much like the wheels analogy.

This one below worries me - what they are not saying and should be saying is "auctioned by Tesla" but instead they say "purchased through auction". I see absolutely no legal basis for an auction to remove FSD. If they truly mean "purchased through auction" then it's a big issue in my book.

That, and of course, the terrible Tesla execution. Once the car is out of their hands it should not change.

Tesla is so scummy, terrible.


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Saabstory88

Member
Dec 31, 2018
99
116
Midwest
Tesla removes FSD if the owner received it for free. There is the very rare case that someone gets it as compensation for some issue. Employees also get it for free, which is the much more common case, and AFAIK it is not on the Monroney. If this car came to auction from Tesla it might have been from an employee, and Tesla will absolutely remove the item that the owner never paid for. This is probably why this situation seems so common, but it's definitely not arbitrary. They are removing a feature they granted as a perk, not as something that was purchased for the vehicle. Their timing as to when they remove it is definitely a problem though.
 
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GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,162
714
UK
Tesla removes FSD if the owner received it for free. There is the very rare case that someone gets it as compensation for some issue. Employees also get it for free, which is the much more common case, and AFAIK it is not on the Monroney. If this car came to auction from Tesla it might have been from an employee, and Tesla will absolutely remove the item that the owner never paid for. This is probably why this situation seems so common, but it's definitely not arbitrary. They are removing a feature they granted as a perk, not as something that was purchased for the vehicle. Their timing as to when they remove it is definitely a problem though.
Thats a new argument I've not seen mentioned before. I'm not sure where that one came from, I'd be interested in seeing the background (not to doubt you, just to understand it better), but either way it makes little difference to whats happening when it happens (ie somebody thinks the car has it but its taken away), just who's responsible.

Personally I still want a dealer who's had this happen share what the paperwork said at the auction and how the car is described. I'd be very surprised if it didn't mention FSD or not in the wording which should be the biggest clue
 

Saabstory88

Member
Dec 31, 2018
99
116
Midwest
Thats a new argument I've not seen mentioned before. I'm not sure where that one came from, I'd be interested in seeing the background (not to doubt you, just to understand it better), but either way it makes little difference to whats happening when it happens (ie somebody thinks the car has it but its taken away), just who's responsible.

Personally I still want a dealer who's had this happen share what the paperwork said at the auction and how the car is described. I'd be very surprised if it didn't mention FSD or not in the wording which should be the biggest clue

While this is just the first example Google handed me, it appears that this has been Tesla's policy for years. If someone doesn't pay for FSD for whatever reason, it is removed when the new owner registers the car with their new Tesla account. We do know that employees are eligible to receive free FSD when they purchase. To my knowledge, which could be misinformed or outdated, this happens after the car is delivered so the employee doesn't have to finance the extra $10k. Therefore, it's never a feature listed in the MVPA or Monroney, ie, legally doesn't belong to the car. Given that it's been almost 4 years of employees buying Model 3's, Tesla has 50k? employees, and there are new compelling replacements for these cars, we should expect to see a lot more of these cases pop up in the used market.
 

GeorgeSymonds

Active Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,162
714
UK
While this is just the first example Google handed me, it appears that this has been Tesla's policy for years. If someone doesn't pay for FSD for whatever reason, it is removed when the new owner registers the car with their new Tesla account. We do know that employees are eligible to receive free FSD when they purchase. To my knowledge, which could be misinformed or outdated, this happens after the car is delivered so the employee doesn't have to finance the extra $10k. Therefore, it's never a feature listed in the MVPA or Monroney, ie, legally doesn't belong to the car. Given that it's been almost 4 years of employees buying Model 3's, Tesla has 50k? employees, and there are new compelling replacements for these cars, we should expect to see a lot more of these cases pop up in the used market.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the article doesn't seem to support the argument as the headline is

Tesla reportedly removing paid-for features after used-car sales​

and you're talking about features not paid for?

This article/faq from a dedicated Tesla site doubts that this only occurs when the feature isn't paid for, it's purely to do with Tesla altering the spec as its economically makes more sense. Maybe it could be when people bought FSD cheaply as Tesla have done firesales before and its cost as little as $2k in the past, they just strip it off and want the full price, it could be for cars that don't have the FSD computer and its easier and cheaper to strip FSD than have to upgrade the hardware, whatever the motivation, I think its wider than just staff freebies that get it taken away.

 

Akgross

Member
Jul 19, 2021
7
0
Palm Coast, Florida
I bought a 2021 Model Y with Full Auto self Driving from a dealer that just got the car in trade.

I called the Tesla service line and talked to a very nice lady and asked her for help because I didn’t see the car in my application I downloaded and asked her about the parking feature. She asked me for the last 6 of the vin and my email address. She verified that yes, it did have the full auto pilot feature. I asked her how I would be able to get the car on my application to be able to use this feature. She told me I had to take ownership of the car and that I need to go to a computer and sign on to my account and add the car by adding a third-party ownership. I asked her to clarify that if I do this, I will not lose anything, and she said all the features of the car will transfer and reassured me that the full auto pilot will still be there. I asked her if she could please document this, and she said she would put in my record. She also let me know that this could take several days to complete.

I went inside and got on my computer and did exactly what she told me to do. It asked for pictures of the registration and my driver’s license. It looked like it transferred the car right away; I was shocked. I pulled up the Tesla app and the car was there. I was happy. went back to the car and the full auto pilot feature was gone.

I have been trying to work this out with Tesla for 17 days now and I'm just getting the run around.
I don't feel this is legal for Tesla to remove anything from my car they don't own the car.

Tesla is trying to make $40,000 per car if the car get sold 4 times in the cars life. I bought the car with this accessory like navigation and the manufacture has no right to remove it if they don't own the car.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,521
5,468
I bought a 2021 Model Y with Full Auto self Driving from a dealer that just got the car in trade.

I called the Tesla service line and talked to a very nice lady and asked her for help because I didn’t see the car in my application I downloaded and asked her about the parking feature. She asked me for the last 6 of the vin and my email address. She verified that yes, it did have the full auto pilot feature. I asked her how I would be able to get the car on my application to be able to use this feature. She told me I had to take ownership of the car and that I need to go to a computer and sign on to my account and add the car by adding a third-party ownership. I asked her to clarify that if I do this, I will not lose anything, and she said all the features of the car will transfer and reassured me that the full auto pilot will still be there. I asked her if she could please document this, and she said she would put in my record. She also let me know that this could take several days to complete.

I went inside and got on my computer and did exactly what she told me to do. It asked for pictures of the registration and my driver’s license. It looked like it transferred the car right away; I was shocked. I pulled up the Tesla app and the car was there. I was happy. went back to the car and the full auto pilot feature was gone.

I have been trying to work this out with Tesla for 17 days now and I'm just getting the run around.
I don't feel this is legal for Tesla to remove anything from my car they don't own the car.

Tesla is trying to make $40,000 per car if the car get sold 4 times in the cars life. I bought the car with this accessory like navigation and the manufacture has no right to remove it if they don't own the car.
The terminology you are using is confusing and non-standard. Did your Model Y have the $10k FSD option or Autopilot (which is included free in the car for 2021)? If you said "full auto pilot" the rep may have thought you were referring to AP (this gives you TACC and Autosteer, but not NOA).

If the dealer got it on a trade, Tesla does not remove FSD. The only exception is for employee owned cars that may have got it as a perk for employment or if original owner got it by mistake for free. If the dealer got it on an auction, Tesla does remove it as per terms of auction, given they owned the car and had the right to do so. I would ask the dealer if they have documentation what options the car came with. If the MVPA does not list FSD for $10k, it's not included.

There was also a 3 month trial of FSD at end of last year, but that should have expired long ago. The subscription just came out a few days ago, so it can't be that either.
 

Mark J

Member
May 3, 2021
16
10
Deer Park Wa
This is not correct. The only way a vehicle "loses FSD" is if Tesla regains possession and decides to remove it.

If a vehicle is traded into any other dealer, FSD will transfer to the next buyer.

Maybe this whole policy backfires on Tesla. Now so many people are confused and think FSD is difficult to transfer and has very little resale value.
Correct I bought a MX from a Jeep dealer and the Free supercharging, free Connectivity, and FSD all are included and transferred with no issues.
 
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Akgross

Member
Jul 19, 2021
7
0
Palm Coast, Florida
I bought a 2021 Model Y with Full Auto self Driving from a dealer that just got the car in trade.

I called the Tesla service line and talked to a very nice lady and asked her for help because I didn’t see the car in my application I downloaded and asked her about the parking feature. She asked me for the last 6 of the vin and my email address. She verified that yes, it did have the full auto pilot feature. I asked her how I would be able to get the car on my application to be able to use this feature. She told me I had to take ownership of the car and that I need to go to a computer and sign on to my account and add the car by adding a third-party ownership. I asked her to clarify that if I do this, I will not lose anything, and she said all the features of the car will transfer and reassured me that the full auto pilot will still be there. I asked her if she could please document this, and she said she would put in my record. She also let me know that this could take several days to complete.

I went inside and got on my computer and did exactly what she told me to do. It asked for pictures of the registration and my driver’s license. It looked like it transferred the car right away; I was shocked. I pulled up the Tesla app and the car was there. I was happy. went back to the car and the full auto pilot feature was gone.

I have been trying to work this out with Tesla for 17 days now and I'm just getting the run around.
I don't feel this is legal for Tesla to remove anything from my car they don't own the car.

Tesla is trying to make $40,000 per car if the car get sold 4 times in the cars life. I bought the car with this accessory like navigation and the manufacture has no right to remove it if they don't own the car.
 

Akgross

Member
Jul 19, 2021
7
0
Palm Coast, Florida
There are other stories like this one but as a dealer I wanted to share a unique, negative experience I'm having.

My very small dealership purchased a 2018 Tesla Model 3 at Manheim auto auction recently. The vehicle was advertised showing FSD in the images included during the sale. I verified FSD was still enabled during the allotted vehicle preview time, which is the opportunity buyers are given to look over cars since most sales are basically "as is."

Background - Manheim is an auto auction similar to eBay for dealers. They connect wholesale buyers (me) with wholesale sellers (Tesla, in this case).

I bought the car during the auction and payment cleared the following day. When I went to pickup the vehicle, the car has somehow been downgraded already to simply "Autopilot." I didn't know this could be done over the air, or so quickly. I suspect I was targeted in the quick removal, but that's more to the story than I want to get into right now.

I am now trying to fight Tesla through Manheim's arbitration service where I can try to dispute the sale. Unfortunately, Manheim has very little incentive to help a small dealer like me instead of their huge client Tesla. So far, they have refused to void the sale or support my claim.

In my opinion, this practice is deceitful and greedy on Tesla's part. It was especially bad when it happens to retail customers, but I really see this example as clear cut. They advertised the car with the feature and then removed it immediately after sale.

Tesla should be forced to deliver the car in the same condition with the same options as when it Was "advertised" during preview. They should remove the feature before the vehicle is offered for sale to dealers if they intend to downgrade the car. I think they have that right, it just needs to be done in a way that is clearly disclosed to the buyer. It's as if I buy a used Tesla from their own website, it says the car includes FSD, but then they deliver a car without the feature.

The auction is enabling this whole loop hole by burying their head in the sand. They refuse to acknowledge FSD as a feature of the car and instead are viewing it as a subscription similar to Sirius XM. Tesla is exploiting this at the expense of dealers, and often those dealer's retail buyers.

I'm pretty sure the auction won't help me out. My only option is probably getting a lawyer, just in case anyone knows one that is working this issue for retail buyers already.

I love the cars, but what a terrible policy.
Could you please give me any updates on this issue?
 

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