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I'm a Tesla defender but I have to own up to this one

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by lolachampcar, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    #1 lolachampcar, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
    I've often defended Tesla from those that claim bait and switch and false advertising.

    To be perfectly clear, the following IS NOT either of those two. It does not even come close.

    However,

    To say I was impressed with Tesla when I got my first P85 would be an understatement. Until that time, all my experience with BEVs (cars or motorcycles) led me to believe that every company on the planet was simply incapable of being truthful about actual range. That is, until I got my P85D.

    One of the first things I did with my new MS was give it a full range charge at home and go on a 200 mile or so trip. It was a "normal" type trip for me with a lot of freeway driving at 70 mph plus with the AC blasting and some stop and go type stuff in South Beach along with normal side roads to and from the interstate. I was amazed that my MS made rated range. For once, a company said their battery would do XYZ and it DID XYZ.

    Here is where I get to eat some crow.

    I just got back from a 130 mile trip in my PD of the exact same nature as above (to Ft. Lauderdale instead of all the way to Miami). I used 132 rated (of a 254 range charge) miles to drive 121 actual miles. The car gets about 91% of what they say it will. Now I am still happy with the car and the company. No one produces a product anything like it. What is lost is the pedestal upon which I originally placed Tesla for setting and then meeting my expectations.
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    maybe that pedestal was set unreasonably high. There are a lot of variables in play on range for any car (gas, electric, hydrogen, whatever). Wind, traffic, climate control, weight in the vehicle, tire wear, etc. 91% of rated is well within realistic expectations, IMO.
     
  3. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    I guess I'm not really following. The issue is that you didn't make rated? If so, were there any other factors at play? Higher speed, hotter day, traffic, more acceleration, improperly inflated tires etc?

    Come on up North, I'll show you what rated range really means :wink:
     
  4. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

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    It will get 100% if you slow down....... but that's not in your nature!! :biggrin: or mine either!
     
  5. linkster

    linkster Member

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    Might a taller (~.5") 265 out back help on "Ds" as I think it does on the RWD classics?
     
  6. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Member

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    I feel like someone is spoofing Lolachampcar's account. Lola is such a longtimer, he/she should have known this long ago. No vehicle of any kind always gets the advertised EPA efficiency numbers all the time on every trip. I mean, I consider it incredibly freaking lucky that you were able to get rated miles driving 70+ mph on that first trip, considering the EPA numbers are measured more in a 55-60 mph range.
     
  7. mkspeedr

    mkspeedr Member

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    I am not sure if I can blame Tesla but my range and my mom's range are significantly different (both P85D).
     
  8. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    Rated range (i.e. 'what they say it will') is rated range at 65 mph. I'm not sure they failed to deliver on this one if you were driving at 70mph?



    You have GOT to tell your mom to slow down...
     
  9. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    Little confused by the OP. Is that a quote from lolachamp himself or a quote from someone else? Anyway, it all comes down to Wh/mile which is affected a zillion different variables, many of them psychological/subconscious. If I'm going to take a short "route I take all the time" trip to challenge/test/assess Tesla's range claim, and I tell myself I'm going to "drive like I normally do", but deep down inside I want the car to hit rated range, I might unintentionally make decisions about which lane to drive in, whether to pass or follow a car, draft a big rig, etc., which could result in hitting rated range (basically under 300Wh/mile) or not (over 300Wh/mile). Of course, using cruise control reduces some of these variables but may not result in the best range. I think one can beat the efficiency of the cruise control at roughly the same average speed by allowing a little variability in instantaneous speed to keep the powermeter well below 30kW.
     
  10. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    I don't even get what the complaint is. If you drive at the rated Wh/mile, you get the rated range. How many rated miles you used another time is irrelevant. The car has not become 9% worse in some way, you just used slightly more energy on this trip whether due to speed, weather, acceleration, tire inflation, whatever. Does someone with >2800 posts really not understand this?
     
  11. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I beat rated.
     

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  12. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    #12 lolachampcar, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
    Come on girls and guys.....
    Sure, I understand range perfectly. I also know the number Tesla puts up on the dash for rated range is a number they choose to present.
    I was so very happy when I got my first P85 and it actually did exactly what they said it would do right out of the box with the way I would normally drive a car. I did not have to go an artificially slower speed on the interstate and play rolling bollard. I did not have to accelerate like a Skoda or lift a half mile before a stop light.

    The PD does not do that. Tesla picked a number that is higher than what the car will do given the way I normally drive a car. Put differently, driving my first P85 (or the P+ for that matter) right along side the PD yields different results when comparing consuming rated miles. The P85 was very close for one of my normal trips which was a pleasant surprise given I do not drive at 55 (or 65 or whatever the magic number is). The PD falls about 9% short. Apples to apples here; this is not commentary on W-Hr/mile consumption. It is just my coming to grips with the idea that Tesla can display a number that is close to MY reality if they choose yet they decided not to do so on the PD because the number would have been too low and there would have been too much explaining to do.

    Another way to look at it is my normal driving yielded under 290 W-Hr/mile on my P and P+ (over 25K miles driven) while my PD is running about 320 for about 8k miles. Same style; same location/weather etc. Apply 290/320 * 265 would yield 240 rated but Tesla decided to show me 254 rated. My point is that Tesla is choosing to show a more optimistic number or is choosing to require more conservative driving to achieve rated range.

    Again, none of this is new news nor is it any kind of a big deal. It is just that I have been pretty one sided on defending Tesla and this is a place where I would have a hard time doing so.

    AGAIN, no biggie.
     
  13. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    The rated ranges are based on the EPA test. I don't think Tesla chose a number higher or lower than what the EPA test revealed.
     
  14. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    It's pretty hard to get rated miles close to actual miles in the P85D, that's for sure. Much harder than in the P85.

    At times I could drive the P85 like I would any other car, without paying attention to range, and I would get very close to rated usage, sometimes even better than rated while cruising on the highway on a nice day.

    On the P85D I have to really work just to achieve rated... mainly slowing down significantly more than I needed to in the P85 on the same route.

    The P85D's rated miles have been pretty useless to me since day 1. I changed the setting to show battery percentage since that's been available. I only switch over to miles if I want more resolution in the percentage by doing the rated/max math.

    I was able to hypermile the P85D down to 254 Wh/mi for a ~57 mile trip, and that was pretty painful. Average speed was ~53 MPH. Hit 75-80 MPH coasting down a couple of hills on the interstate, but that was about it.

    In the P85 I've done a 212 mile trip at 281 Wh/mi, which is better than rated, at normal highway speeds along part of the same route.

    My best long stretch in the P85D was when I decided driving from home straight to South Hill VA was a good idea (228 miles): Drained P85D Battery to 0.4%! success!!
    50-60F outside, so minimal HVAC. Took a little bit of hypermiling, and keeping speeds at 65 or less for the most part (lower than the speed limit on some stretches), but I made it happen. Still used 330 Wh/mi. Tesla said I'd be able to go much further at 65 MPH in the P85D. I don't see that happening.

    Long story short, yeah I think they need to rethink this whole rated mile nonsense. And I definitely agree that it's complete nonsense on the P85D.
     
  15. lolachampcar

    lolachampcar Active Member

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    comma,
    That would make sense..... but the number I have achieved by range charging has moved around a bit with software versions even when you take into account battery degradation. I should have been more accurate and said the number of rated miles Tesla chooses to show me on a range charge.

    wk,
    You got me thinking about it from yet another angle. The PD should be less efficient than a P or older single motor car. That is absolutely to be expected. I think what happened is that it was a little too inefficient so Tesla did a little fudging on the displayed rated miles. These are not real numbers but I could imagine the conversation going something like-
    engineering
    The PD is 15% less efficient than the P when people are driving around normally.
    marketing
    There is no way we can post those numbers after Elon initially said the dual motor cars would be more efficient.
    engineering
    How about we call it 10%; can you live with that.
    marketing
    Well, ok if we have to.



    Lastly, I'm not suggesting Tesla change a thing. I do think they would get killed in the press if they did a linear de-rating of range charge rated miles such that the PD consumed exactly the same number of rated miles as the older cars. The position they picked acknowledged the reduction in efficiency but fudged just a bit (IMO).
     
  16. mkspeedr

    mkspeedr Member

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    You have GOT to tell your mom to slow down...[/QUOTE]

    LOL - yes! I thought she would have slowed down when she retired to AZ.

    But I do agree the P85D range is not as advertised. I just blame the car for making me overzealous with the accelerator.
     
  17. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    IMHO, 90% of rated is pretty darn good. Haven't kept close track recently, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm seeing less than that. I average 340 Wh/mi and I think rated is 300 Wh/mi. And I'm certainly no Tesla defender, as all of you well know :wink:

    One more thing... Unless I'm mistaken isn't it called "rated" for a reason? The EPA determined that number, not Tesla.
     
  18. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I live 2 miles from the state highway, involving curves and hills that don't really allow me to take advantage of regen. As a result, all of my shorter trips suffer from "400ia" - by the time I get to the state highway, I'm at 500-600 Wh/mi. As a result, my lifetime average is 350 Wh/mi (about 85% of rated). Now, on longer trips - like my run to Florida recently - I can frequently make 280 at 5 mph over the speed limit, but I can't do it locally.

    A lot of people have the same concern, because I'm frequently asked "how many miles do you really get on a charge?"
     
  19. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    Personally, I think any miles of range displayed should in some way be based on actual usage. Maybe start with rated as a base, but adjust up or down from there as the car is used more, and have an option to reset this at any time.

    For example, my life Wh/mi in my P85D is somewhere between 350-360. On my P85 it was ~320. If the P85D used this and just showed me ~200 miles at 90% instead of 228, I personally would feel much better about it.

    Really, I'd like there to be this and a fourth setting to the Rated/Ideal miles display. The last one being "Custom" where I can select my own Wh/mi for a mile displayed.

    But back to the topic, yeah Tesla certainly fudged the P85D range numbers. It shows 253 miles on mine at 100%. That's only ~5% less than the P85. But in reality it's more like 10-12% less efficient on average for the same long trips I've done. In a mostly controlled test like my second side-by-side it comes in pretty darn close to the P85, but this was at lower than regular driving speeds. I really should do another side by side at night (no traffic) with the cruise at 78 with normal acceleration and such.
     
  20. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    This is going to be the MOST confusing aspect of EV driving to former ICE drivers as EVs go mainstream... second to understanding what the heck a kW vs a kWh are and why they can't supercharge at home...

    An ICE is ~30% efficient... meaning that 70% of energy is gone no matter how fast they drive or how much A/C they use. Driving 60 vs 70 in an ICE gives you <5% more range... in an EV >20% more range...

    External variables like speed, A/C and topography are 30% of ICE consumption.... >80% of EV consumption... that's the 'cost' of efficiency. It's easy to forget that a P85 has the energy equivalent of a 2.5gal gas tank.
     

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