Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

I'm not related to JP, but I'm shorting TSLA...

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Several months ago I was debating someone online regarding TSLA. He had posted hundreds of remarks on how TSLA was overvalued, etc. He said that he was short on TSLA. After chatting with him for over 2 hours (which wasn't enjoyable because he wasn't open-minded at all), I asked him how many shares he was short TSLA. He said 10 shares.

Case in point, it's not just about someone posting that they went short at $198. Anybody can do that. He should also post how many shares he's short as well. If this is going to be a dedicated thread (which I'm not sure it should be), then we ought to see a screenshot of the actual trade claimed by tftf. The screenshot should show the date of the trade, TSLA symbol, # shares short, and price sold. If we don't get this from tftf, then we really ought to shut this thread down (or at least move it off the Investors Forum).


Yes, agree with this. Somehow of all the TSLA 'shorts' I've corresponded with on other forums, all of them somehow made money shorting TSLA at a high and covering at a low, how is this possible??? It's not, I've yet to meet an honest short...maybe we need them to show their audited financials to get an honest short.
 
Yeah. I'm calling shenanigans too. If only I had a Nickel for every person who has told me they bought TSLA at 30 bucks… :cool:

I met someone recently who told me she bought TSLA at $4.

I told her TSLA never traded at $4, ever.

She re-emphasized she bought TSLA at $4/share and that she did stocks/investing for a living and that I would never win an argument with her.

True story.
 
I met someone recently who told me she bought TSLA at $4.

I told her TSLA never traded at $4, ever.

She re-emphasized she bought TSLA at $4/share and that she did stocks/investing for a living and that I would never win an argument with her.

She said that because she already knew you won the argument with her.
 
Yeah. I'm calling shenanigans too. If only I had a Nickel for every person who has told me they bought TSLA at 30 bucks… :cool:

Heyyyyy .... you'd get more than a nickel from me. But I posted when I bought at the time. And I gave my dogs the credit for delaying my order, which got me the low price of $28. Average price for my shares is in the low $30s. And I'm holding. Because I'm still on short term cap gains.

That's my investment account. Not tax-deferred, obviously. On the other hand, I have bought and sold the shares in my retirement account a few times. But that's a diff story.
 
Heyyyyy .... you'd get more than a nickel from me. But I posted when I bought at the time. And I gave my dogs the credit for delaying my order, which got me the low price of $28. Average price for my shares is in the low $30s. And I'm holding. Because I'm still on short term cap gains.

That's my investment account. Not tax-deferred, obviously. On the other hand, I have bought and sold the shares in my retirement account a few times. But that's a diff story.

Same here, bought all my core held shares from $29-$38. Never sold them. Bought others higher that I converted to LEAPS, back to stock, and now LEAPS again, but those core originals were never sold or rolled, and won't be until after GENIII
 
I'm not as fortunate as some of you here, but I'm not disappointed with my TSLA investment. Originally got in at 92, tried to time the market when it dropped into the 80's and paid for it, got back in at an average of around $100. I did sell on the big drop and started buying back in at the bottom but I basically ended up right where I started off. I don't plan to sell my current shares anytime soon.
 
Yeah. I'm calling shenanigans too. If only I had a Nickel for every person who has told me they bought TSLA at 30 bucks… :cool:

I put half my net wealth into Tesla at $28.33. Problem was I was a college student with little money who was about to get married. Soooooooooooooooooo I won't be a millionaire anytime soon but I am working up to 6 figures slowly :) no complaints.

Sorry I couldnt help myself.
 
Disclosure: I do not have any shares in TSLA, so there's no money where my mouth is. ;)
I'm in the same "position" of not having any shares in TSLA, so I don't know where that puts me.

As for the OP, I'm not entirely sure what that post was about. Is it simply to say he's not JP? I just looked back at his post history, seems to just pop randomly into this forum to do "reputation management".
 
Not quite $30, but I'm willing to donate that nickel considering it's a small price to pay listening to the folks here on this forum a year ago when the first short-term thread started. I bought in at page 6 when the price was $36 and a few were hoping it would hit $40. Nowhere did I (nor others here) think it would get up near $200 in less than the year I've owned it. At the time I bought the shares, I was thinking $45 a year from now would have been incredible. $200 now is rather incredulous... but I don't mind. :cool:

BTW, I'm planning on staying long. That's just my investing style. I don't know how to play the short-term calls/puts bets nor do I have the options account, time or patience for it.
 
And this is the only real-time data point that we got from tftf ever. In the past he mentioned how he made money in TSLA using perfect hindsight and what he wrote is so fantastically unbelievable that I am sure that he left out a bunch of losing trades along the way.

I would like to see tftf continue posting his trades here in real-time, because I think that would be beneficial to everyone on this forum; especially if he is shorting TSLA (it is good to see a short's thought .

About data points: It's not the only one, you can follow the link in the first post and see that I closed my last short position back in November around $121. It's time-stamped in this forum. Many of my earlier trades are also time-stamped on SA in comments.

I'm ok to post my TSLA trades in this thread on the same day as I open and close them (As you can see from my trade history, I only do a few over weeks or even months, I wouldn't even call it trading).

Some generic points:

1. I'm doing this for information purposes so that you can get an insight what a person on the other side of the trade thinks, that's all. Shorting is risky. As a rule of thumb, a single short position is only 1% of my portfolio and my overall short position is around 5% (around 10% was the all-time-high).
My last trade at $198 was 0.5x (50% of a normal-sized short-trade as indicated, where x is about 1% of the portfolio size).

2. I'm the first to admit that I was also lucky last year. First, if not for the fire incidents the stock would have never come down so much (and I always maintained the fire incident reactions were overblown, you can check my post history. I entered my shorts before). Second, I was lucky to catch the bottom towards the end of November 2013. But I also have some experience in the markets.

3. Many shorts are not well-informed regarding TSLA details. I say that as a short. These were mostly the ones shorting at $20-30, I was long at that time. I followed TSLA since before the IPO and I have no problem going long again should the stock ever fall back to the $50-70 range (I realize these prices are highly unlikely short-term, many longs probably believe we will never see them again).
The issue persists to this day. For example, in the CNBC video below the fundamentals guest seems to mix up TSLA gross margin targets (25%) with net or operating margins from German competitors like BMW or Daimler:

They're talking about margins of 25% on their Model S. When you consider what BMW and Mercedes are doing, their margins are in the 5.8% to 6.5% range."

This chart says Tesla is cheap | Talking Numbers - Yahoo Finance

He's talking about different margins which of course is mixing apples and oranges (but I agree with some of the other points he makes).
So in the same way I called out a long analyst in the past (Andrea James) I have no trouble saying the same for analysts on the short side.

4. I see many stocks, especially the tech sector as overvalued at the moment (TWTR, YELP...). I wouldn't single out TSLA. I see the overall stock market ripe for a correction in the coming months (new FED chair Yellen can probably add some injury time). I see the upcycle in US stock market that started in March 2009 on its last legs. This is my generic reason to focus more on shorting in 2014-2015.

5. I hope this thread can remain civil (The moderators turned my post into a thread of its own). Since the TSLA battery factory announcements could be made public sooner than expected and I started a new position, I thought it was a good time to come back actively as earlier indicated. I will only comment on these two topics (stock positions and battery factory/mass-market strategy) and stay out of other threads. (Hope that reduces moderation work to an absolute minimum).
 
Last edited:
To answer that as well:

I don't consider what he posted in his last post as positive, saying that Tesla will only ever be a niche player in the auto industry is what all the shorts say when claiming the stock is over valued.

I didn't mean this in a disparaging way. That's why I used Porsche as an ICE example and called it the "Porsche exit strategy not taken".

If you look at Porsche figures, being a high-end niche player works great compared to most peers (especially from a financial perspective). This strategy would mean TSLA becoming the equivalent of Porsche for the EV world with similar price points and model offerings - basically never introduce a Gen III (and Gen IV) car.

Porsche achieves the highest margins in the industry on small unit volumes. Even today, after years of growth (Porsche morphed into a SUV and saloon builder although the company would not emphasize that in marketing because of the sports car heritage), they only sell about 250k cars/year - including the new best-selling Macan SUV (!). Yet they make more money than most volume car companies, not just in relative terms, but also in absolute numbers.

But I know that TSLA has a different strategy (outlined by Elon Musk a long time ago), that means entering the mass-market (Gen III, Gen IV etc.) and comes with even higher ambitions (see first slides of the current Jan 2014 TSLA investor presentation available as PDF).

That's my main reason for being short. I see too much risk ahead given the current valuation and the long-term competition, but this was discussed already. I only posted the above as a summary (For people interested in details and numbers, see my older posts here or over at SA in blog posts such as "Mind the three I" regarding Incentives, Infrastructure and Battery Innovation in the mass market segments).
 
Last edited:
But I know that TSLA has a different strategy (outlined by Elon Musk a long time ago), that means entering the mass-market (Gen III, Gen IV etc.) and comes with even higher ambitions (see first slides of the current Jan 2014 TSLA investor presentation available as PDF).

That's my main reason for being short. I see too much risk ahead given the current valuation and the long-term competition, but this was discussed already. I only posted the above as a summary (For people interested in details and numbers, see my older posts here or over at SA in blog posts such as "Mind the three I" regarding Incentives, Infrastructure and Battery Innovation in the mass market segments).
Elon has never advocated Tesla Motors becoming a "mass market" brand. The strategy presentations I've reviewed always position Tesla against BMW/Audi, but explicitly NOT against Honda/Ford. Likewise, the volume projects that JB Straubel showed at Stanford were volumes that would compete as a major player in the premium range globally, but far below volumes that a successful "mass market" automaker would target.

I don't think the January 2014 investors slides tell a different story. It shows Tesla's share of the US Premium segment, World Premium segment, and overall car sales. I haven't heard an executive talk to these slides, but the fact that two of three charts talk about the "premium" segment tells me where their real emphasis lies. The final chart helps scale the enterprise against the bigger "all vehicles" market, but I don't read that to mean that Tesla intends to sell econobox cars -- at least under the Tesla marque. I could see Tesla selling drivetrains to other OEMs for use in lower-end cars.
 
Elon has never advocated Tesla Motors becoming a "mass market" brand. The strategy presentations I've reviewed always position Tesla against BMW/Audi, but explicitly NOT against Honda/Ford. Likewise, the volume projects that JB Straubel showed at Stanford were volumes that would compete as a major player in the premium range globally, but far below volumes that a successful "mass market" automaker would target.

I agree with you on TSLA not going after Honda/Ford with Gen III (*) and more against BMW/Audi and similar car brands, also in terms of unit sales. I used "mass-market" as a general term since the ASP of new cars is around $25-30k in many developed countries and TSLA would be very close to that with the proposed base price of the Gen III. I think the competition will be very intense in this price segment in EVs in a few years.

Right now, the big car makers are only mildly "annoyed" by TSLA in a few regions (California etc.) and in a few hig-end segments. This will change once the Gen III is introduced - and the Gen III plans are public, many execs do take TSLA seriously (this is also different to when Model S launched and many in the industry thought of Tesla as another Fisker or Coda, especially off the record).

I think BMW, Nissan-Renault and lately also VW Group (Audi...) and unnamed Asian car brands are adding more resources in EVs - this can be seen in hirings and key initiatives over the past months. I think competition will be very intense in 2017-2022 when the next generation of mass-market EVs and PHEVs (around $35k or lower) is launched.

____
* The Gen IV vehicle may change that with even lower price points, but it's too far off and the specifics quite vague (from the little I know, I don't think much was said about Gen IV in public).
 
Yes, competition will increase. But a key point that many seem to miss is that while the various auto groups are starting to wake up and beginning to scramble to compete with Tesla, Tesla is not stagnant. Tesla continues to innovate from today's platform. They have a wealth of EV knowledge - both about the technology and about how consumers interact with it. The other guys are already behind them in the race, with many wrong assumptions. And it shows.

The competition has a long way to go. And don't get me wrong. I see that as a good thing. More experience, more knowledge, everyone gains. Nothing Elon has ever said would indicate that he doesn't welcome competition - but he's looking for real competition. So far we haven't seen anything that remotely qualifies.
 
Make sure you don't modify your timestamp posts. Posts with "modified" cannot be timestamps.
You will also need to include your position % based on your net worth. Since a $1000/or a 1% investment with perfect execution shows no conviction at all.

I did the same and if you do this, you hold weight in my world. Even more weight is if you include a price target and a time frame of when it will happen. These are the steps in becoming an oracle if you are not explaining why you are shorting.
 
Last edited:
Make sure you don't modify your timestamp posts. Posts with "modified" cannot be timestamps.
Even more weight is if you include a price target and a time frame of when it will happen. These are the steps in becoming an oracle if you are not explaining why you are shorting.

You can always see the last edit time of my posts in the forum (I sometimes edit a few minutes or at max a few hours later for clarity because I'm not a native speaker). Comments on SA can't be edited a few minutes after posting anyway.

I can't give price targets (these depend on future - yet unknown - news in my opinion so I constantly revise them) or timeframes and I'm certainly not an oracle. (I only do this because some people accused me of being short when I had no positions or assumed I was "short since $30" etc.).

I'm also not a technical or short-term trader, I usually hold for a few weeks or even months.
 
Last edited: