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You shouldn't buy the leading edge of technology, whatever the product, and then complain when the technology advances and/or the price drops soon after you bought it. This car needs to be thought of as a technology product, not as a traditional car with a long life cycle. It's going to lose resale value as technology advances, and Tesla is not going to slow advances to maintain resale value for existing cars! If it still meets your needs, you don't need to resell it so it doesn't matter what the resale value is a year or two after you buy it.
 
You shouldn't buy the leading edge of technology, whatever the product, and then complain when the technology advances and/or the price drops soon after you bought it. This car needs to be thought of as a technology product, not as a traditional car with a long life cycle. It's going to lose resale value as technology advances, and Tesla is not going to slow advances to maintain resale value for existing cars! If it still meets your needs, you don't need to resell it so it doesn't matter what the resale value is a year or two after you buy it.

Pretty much echoing my sentiments.
 
As a Signature owner I guess I should be upset too but I'm not. Sure it sucks to not have the latest and greatest but if it bothered me that much I'd order a new Model S. Tesla didn't take anything away from me by updating the car quickly. Even if there weren't new versions coming out quickly buying a new car then trying to sell it 9 months later isn't the best way to save money.
 
I've had the car back in more times than I care to count to stop the interior creaking. Faulty chargers, broken high level tail lights, and no matter how many appliques get put on it still fogs up.

Despite all of this, I was putting it down as "growing pains", and I was still broadly on side. Swayed by how good the cars were.

I'm glad I bought the Ampera in July 2012. No squeeks or rattles after 3 years and 74.000km even though we have poor roads due to maintenance funds being siphoned to railroads and the battery is as new. I've taken this photo yesterday:

20150415155223.jpg

Range is the same as new and my Lifetime average is 0.49l/100km of gasoline. Basically, I'm at least 90% electric.


I've seen Teslas dead on the road, with windows, that wouldn't go back up, bad fit&finish, cold wind blowing on the driver's left hand through the door somewhere, 1st gen seats are bad, with bad seat heating.
My friend who considered the Model S and was ready to buy it, decided to buy the Kia Soul EV after he tested the Model S for several days. He rented one as he wanted to have a thorough test done.

Edit: And all these warning-less configuration and price changes are horrible. One can always feel like being cheated.
 
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My future Tesla fund has all just gone to Lotus for a new Exige V6 Roadster, and I feel in a much happier place (especially with a proven track record of 65%+ residuals after 3 years).

Good choice! Tesla is perfect for daily city driving, but there's something missing. Nimbleness, road feel, sound and emotion. P85D wouldn't solve that, but Lotus will deliver!
 
I'm glad I bought the Ampera in July 2012. No squeeks or rattles after 3 years and 74.000km even though we have poor roads due to maintenance funds being siphoned to railroads and the battery is as new. I've taken this photo yesterday:

20150415155223.jpg

Range is the same as new and my Lifetime average is 0.49l/100km of gasoline. Basically, I'm at least 90% electric.


I've seen Teslas dead on the road, with windows, that wouldn't go back up, bad fit&finish, cold wind blowing on the driver's left hand through the door somewhere, 1st gen seats are bad, with bad seat heating.
My friend who considered the Model S and was ready to buy it, decided to buy the Kia Soul EV after he tested the Model S for several days. He rented one as he wanted to have a thorough test done.

Edit: And all these warning-less configuration and price changes are horrible. One can always feel like being cheated.

My best EV use on a charge in my 2012 Volt was ~58 miles/93km. I still suggest the Volt to people who I talk to who need a car but can't quite make the jump to Tesla. It's a pretty good car.
 
I am so sorry to hear the OP's problems. It just plain F-ing sucks. Plain and simple. I have been fortunate so far, with 10K mi on the car, I have had only one problem and it was fixed instantly. But I live 45 mi from the factory. Maybe that makes a diff. So I guess I am lucky.

I totally feel for you and wish your experience had been better.
 
Thanks to all of you that say to enjoy the Lotus, don't worry I will, it will be my 3rd so I know I won't be disappointed :) (I definitely have some brand loyalty there)

Yes my view towards getting the Model S was definitely tech, image and rarity related, rather environmental.

Just to be clear, I'm not cross shopping a P85D vs a Lotus exactly. I already have an Elise as a weekend car and the Exige is basically upgrading that.

The Model S is my daily driver, and I'd planned on keeping it 3 years, then get shot. It was always the plan, and has been for my last 4 cars. I cross shopped the Model S against my TCO budget, so I probably would have had a nearly new top spec E class soft top, or a 6 series, or ... who knows.

CharlesD85 hit the nail on the head and said it's a crapshoot and he's right, however with no used examples to gauge how much a car is likely to be worth, the biggest ownership cost factor for me (I do <10k miles per year) is the residuals. At the time we had Elon pronouncing they would be worth 50% after 3 years. I put some store in that (though as I was funding this my self I took it with a grain of salt, and have set a book value at 40%). They simply aren't going to get close to that in the UK market. (Loaded P85's are cropping up at 65% of new in under 10 months already).

To the people saying "but it's bleeding edge tech." Yes, but unfortunately this isn't an iPad we are talking about, it's not something most of us can buy out of a months disposable income. I bought it as a car, and viewed it just like every other car I've bought.

For Tesla to succeed as a car manufacturer, as boring as it sounds I think they need to re-evaluate their launch strategy, people need visibilty in what is typically their second biggest purchase. Even iPhones have a clearly telegraphed release cycle.

Being in the UK isn't helping either. With such a lag between order and delivery, cars are literally becoming obsolete before they've been delivered. We aren't even a year in and all the launch cars are now discontinued (OK the S85 remains but let's be honest it's a runout model, the 70D is a better fit for the UK market, and I wholly expect them to be worth more secondhand given the attraction of AWD over a negligible real world range. A 60 is sufficient in the UK for me unless there is an OTA amphibious mode update :D). If I were choosing, I'd say now the model desirability for the UK market looks like: P85D>S85D>S70D>P85>S85>S60.

I do wonder if the "production problems" with RHD cars are actually Tesla doing their best to push back the D cars, because they know full well the impact it's going to have on used cars. This is even more important here, given there's no older UK cars acting as a lower bound for pricing. In the US at least there are 2 year old cars that set the scene, here people buying will be looking at cars all of a similar age, so will just hold out for ones with auto-pilot, or more worryingly for owners that had delivery last month, people holding out for the D cars.

Right now if a friend asked me about buying a Tesla, the only way I can recommend it is if they buy under the guaranteed residuals program (something unavailable at UK launch). Otherwise it's just too risky.

The biggest shame is I feel this way. Tesla worked so hard to get me on board as a customer, and now I'm pretty certain I won't be a repeat one.

- - - Updated - - -

My best EV use on a charge in my 2012 Volt was ~58 miles/93km. I still suggest the Volt to people who I talk to who need a car but can't quite make the jump to Tesla. It's a pretty good car.

Volt v2, will certainly be on my list as a replacement for the Tesla, if GM decide to sell it here. I can easily do 95%+ of my journeys on the Volt's EV range, and it's plenty fast enough for commuting in.

The promotion of the the V1 Volt here in the UK (as the Vauxhall Ampera) was pretty poor. Cynically you might suppose it would have crippled sales of the "Insignia" if given a fair run ;)

I know a few owners, and they have nothing bad to say about them.
 
SMAC I really appreciate your post, it and the replies have cemented a conclusion I was forming. I have researched EV, battery technology, the Tesla's themselves (test drives, discussions with owners and devouring anything published) and have concluded I am not an innovator or early adopter or perhaps I want a more complete experience. Tesla is a bold innovative company and I applaud what they have done. I put my money where my mouth is in supporting a future with less reliance on fossil fuels. I generate on average 85Kwh per day from my 20kw PV system. However for a purchase as expensive as this it needs to be filling more of "what I want" versus "what I am willing to put up with". They are a great car to drive and the unique feel of an electric drive is very enjoyable and would be every time you drive away. For some that is enough on its own. Climbing into the luxury and outlook of a Range Rover Vogue is also enjoyable every time you open the door. Listening to the rumble of a beefy V8 in a C63 AMG brings a grin every time I hear it. I have neither of those cars at the moment, I change cars a lot, perhaps I have an addiction.

I suspect I am the type of buyer that Tesla needs to win over to get to mainstream volumes. The things that would need to be in place before I will press "order" are...

* Product updates ( the big ones like Dual motors or jumps in battery range) that dramatically impact the relative attractiveness of the pre-change vehicles needs to be on a longer horizon, or as SMAC says you run the risk of a current car suffering by comparison, maybe even before it arrives. In Australia the lead time today for any D is 7 months.

* The interior is just not up to standard for a car that costs $190k for a P85D (USD$146k) . I have read about those that like the open centre, or don't mind the lack of storage for bits and pieces. But the overwhelming input is that interior is short of the mark. There should not be an aftermarket for front and rear consoles that are so popular that some have been on backorder. How many times have you read "only 2 cup holders " in reviews, or "no door pockets". The carpet in the cars I have been in does not fit neatly (not staying flat). In general the fit and finish is a long way short of the less expensive CLS400 I sat in recently.

* I am sure it has its fans (especially among those that have bought one), but the front of the car is ugly, that is of course my opinion but I am far from alone. That big shiny bit of plastic just looks cheap. There are plenty of comments to that end in this forum, there are people selling alternative nose cones and the flawed Saleen version even got rid of it. The design philosophy as espoused by Tesla was to make the Model S look like a normal car and not the typical "look at me I am different" EV of the competition. That, I think, was the perfect strategy, but the just missed the mark at the front. As a designer I would have continued the line of the "bumper bar" across the car, which is very "car like" and doesn't shout "look I don't have a big radiator" like that nose cone shouts. There could be faux details above and below that bumper line that add interest. Have a look at the front of many rear engined cars for ideas. They often have less dominant cooling at the front, as they have ducts to the rear which of course a model S would not need to have.

Those are the main things for me. Other less important issues are thing like .... The nearest super charger and service centre is 1000km (600 miles)away. It will not be until 2016 until that changes. Not that big a deal but Tesla are yet to make a mobile charging solution for this market. It is coming, but should have been here before the cars launched. I have a 3 phase 32amp socket already in the garage , connected to my 3 phase PV set up but the 3 phase charger destined for this market for home changing is still not here.

I will definitely buy an EV in the next couple of years (hopefully sooner). I expect it will be a Tesla but hopefully the other car makers have woken up and have plausible alternatives, as that is what is needed to make EV's ultimately successful. I applaud those that have made the commitment to buy the Model S, my future purchase is built on your commitment, thank you very much. I revel in your enthusiasm, I so much want to share it. Perhaps I am being a bit selfish. However, my "wants" are reflective of what I suspect is the audience that holds the key to the long term success of Tesla or is that being too big headed.
 
Loaded P85's are cropping up at 65% of new in under 10 months already

Where? Cheapest P85 on Autotrader today is £69,950, which is about ~80% of retail based on my recollection of the launch option prices.

In comparision, you can pick up a loaded 2014 i3 BEV for £20k, which is ~60% the ~£32k retail price. :confused:

Still, I do sympathise. Having experienced some of these issues myself, there comes a point where you stop justifying the old and start to justify the new.

We have watched Tesla in the UK go from a small "boutique" operation, to something much bigger in about 1 year. Easy to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and point out where they could have done better, but on the whole, I think they are doing a good job. Saying that, one area where it is clear that they need to do better is managing major feature changes, such as the autopilot/D upgrade. Better still if they plan to launch all LHD and RHD upgrades at the same time.

You can see this issue : with their direct sales model, there is no dealership buffer to soak up the last few months of the old model at a discount, but with only one product line, they cannot afford to have big drops in demand every time a desirable new feature is announced. If they had consistent feature parity with LHD and RHD cars (and a public release schedule after an announcement has been made) - then this would be less of an issue.

Perhaps the release of the X will divert the attention of the "feature meddlers" in Tesla HQ and we'll see more stability in colours, standard features, option packs, pricing and delivery schedules.

In the meantime, you still have one of the first Model S in the UK as your commuter car, and several Lotuses to play with for the rest of the time...
 
I purchased fairly early, but not a Sig, and have had two years of great driving. I wouldn't trade those two years for the additional bells and whistles that are on the new cars. Most of the complaints about lack of... are because it's different and different takes getting used to. There are now a reasonable amount of Superchargers and destination chargers to get me where I want to go, but that's only been in the past few weeks (two of the key ones just opened yesterday). However, I was still able to travel without them, even though they are a great nice-to-have. In a Tesla, the driving part of the trip is often as much or more fun than what you do when you arrive.

All that said, if everyone liked the same car, there would only be one car.
 
I purchased fairly early, but not a Sig, and have had two years of great driving. I wouldn't trade those two years for the additional bells and whistles that are on the new cars. Most of the complaints about lack of... are because it's different and different takes getting used to. There are now a reasonable amount of Superchargers and destination chargers to get me where I want to go, but that's only been in the past few weeks (two of the key ones just opened yesterday). However, I was still able to travel without them, even though they are a great nice-to-have. In a Tesla, the driving part of the trip is often as much or more fun than what you do when you arrive.

All that said, if everyone liked the same car, there would only be one car.

+1. Two years and one month, almost 30,000 miles, and New England superchargers dramatically expanded within the last few months making trips so much easier (vs. once charging while napping in the car from 10pm to 1am at an RV dealership in New Hampshire in order to get home by morning :tongue:). Enjoying how new features keep popping up through updates as well - my car keeps getting better.
 
@Jimbo
I saw a loaded one up for £65k on Autotrader from a dealers. No idea what the dealer paid for it, but likely less, and it was probably a trade in as the advert proved they didn't know how to market it. In fairness we don't have enough statistical evidence of the market. I'm probably low-balling the used prices (and high ball estimating the owner to have paid close to £100k for it, as it did have everything bar the rear seats IIRC). If I'm honest the real repercussions will come in 2.5 years time, when the cars start coming off their 3 year leases onto the open market. I'll be watching very closely to maximise my return from the car around that time. The best option in my view is when key psychological price barriers have been broken. My car testing these points first being lower spec and the one of the oldest UK cars. It will probably be the first £25k UK Model S onto the market ;)

I think the i3 BEV is probably an odd ball, a bit like my S60 without Supercharging. The REX is the desirable model, and holding up well.

You are certainly correct with the benefit of hindsight it's far easier to be judgemental.

I think we are also on the same page with the impact of the "strictly no discounting" sales model, and the unfortunate lag of the RHD and LHD cars. The market here is effectively telegraphed very early. Cars are ultimately about what you pay for them minus what they are worth when you sell them. The discounting tools generally used in the motor trade in the run up to such significant model changes and facelift releases certainly helps in this regard, whether Tesla do this themselves or need a dealer model to enact such a strategy, I'm not so sure.

I too hope there's a period of stability, and you are probably right the X will help. The US has proven that a couple of years with just option pack price changes works to give the market a chance to find a level. Fingers crossed we get the same in the UK for the 70D cars, otherwise Tesla will be a really hard car to budget.

Who knows maybe I'll change my mind in two years once the UK folks have got their ducks in a row, Tesla corporate start being more measured in releasing with some sensitivity to the existing owners, and overall have the S on a somewhat stable footing. Who knows what looking round at the market will be like in two years. It's certainly not a slam dunk for Tesla though, and it should be.


BTW I appreciate this is a first world problem. Having been fortunate enough to have spent nearly £130k on cars in less than a year I really shouldn't be complaining :D
 
Well it's on it's way :)

Dealer has kept me informed every step of the way, and just sent me a photo of the car being delivered from the factory, ready for pre-delivery inspection.

Being Delivered.jpg



P.S. I do feel sorry for you guys in the U.S. it's a massive step up from the old four cylinder Exige/Elise's Lotus used to sell over there. ;) :tongue:
 
I feel sorry for you with yet another dinosaur-burner gas-guzzler. But to each his own.

I still have a Model S ;)

It's horses for courses unfortunately. The Model S is a great cruiser, and a very nice place to be for a commute or even simply to get somewhere. It just isn't exciting (apart from the acceleration.)

Once Li-Air or similar tech comes on stream, and the weight penalty comes down, then we can get an EV that truly beats an ICE in every situation.... At that point our Li-Ion's will look Jurassic too ;)
 
I purchased fairly early, but not a Sig, and have had two years of great driving. I wouldn't trade those two years for the additional bells and whistles that are on the new cars.

I feel like, at ~50k miles, I've just broken mine in. I still invent reasons to drive places - taking a ~60 mi round trip just to go browse at the home improvement store, coming home with a few electrical parts or a clearance item or something, and knowing it cost me all of about $1.50 to do that (compared to $10+ in my Suburban or '65 GTO).

The loaners don't feel as "comfortable" as my Signature car does, because typically they haven't been broken in yet. While I don't mind a spirited run in a P85D, I still like my car better.

Repeat after me, the Tesla creed:

This is my Tesla. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My Tesla is my best friend. It is my drive. I must master it as I must master my drive.
My Tesla, without me, is useless. Without my Tesla, I drive without fun.
I must drive my Tesla true. I must drive straighter than my enemy who is trying to ICE me.
I must supercharge before he ICE's me. I will...
My Tesla and I know that what counts in driving is not the miles we drive, the noise of our car,
nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the fun that counts. We will charge...
My Tesla is human, even as I, because it is my drive. Thus, I will learn it as a brother.
I will learn its weaknesses, its strengths, its parts, its accessories, its frunk and its trunk.
I will keep my Tesla clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready.
We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My Tesla and I are the defenders of fun driving.
We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of transportation.
So be it, until victory is electric and there is no enemy, but peace!


(Adaptation of Rifleman's Creed and a nod to Kubrick.)
 
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