Importance of shipping a perfect car

[swegman]

Some of you guys are missing the point. I'm not referring to problerms that may develop over time. I'm not referring to omitted features that may be added via a s/w update. I am referring to problems that exist upon delivery. Tesla and/or the DS people should be checking each car before they are delivered to the purchasers. Things like bad TPMS sensors, GPS not working, etc. should have been detected before delivery and repaired before delivering the car to the owner. All it takes is for a news report that is not pro-EV to get wind of the fact that cars are being delivered that have these problems , they print a story and that story gets picked up by the mainstream press. Tesla will then have a reputation on par with Fiska. Not every Fisker caught fire. A few did. But the press ran with the problem and the general public now believes that all the cars are bad. I'm sure that has cost Fisker some sales. I don't want to see that happen to Tesla. What I am saying is that before a car is delivered to a customer, the DS person needs to do a thorough review and repair any problems that exist before delivery. This is what most dealers do before delivering a car to a customer. Most people would likely be content to wait an extra day or two to get the car and not have to deal with follow-up service. And tesla would have the reputation of initial high quality.

Someone made the statement to the effect that driving the car will negate the initial problems. I believe that many people will never experience such if they are turned off by reports of initial delivery problems. Also, not everyone can drive the car before ordering. For example, it has been posted on this site that Tesla is prohibited from giving their customers test drives in AZ (and possibly other states) due to it being considered "selling" automobiles (another headache for Tesla).

I think we all want Tesla to succeed. The best way to do that is to ensure that the cars are delivered to the owners without flagrant issues. Some things will always slip through, but things like ensuring the charging cable works, the GPS works, the tire pressure system works should be on a checklist that is verified to be working properly. How would you feel if you just get your car delivered, go drive it for say 200 miles and then go to charge it and find out that it will not charge (which you do not know at that point whether it is a charging cable problem, a charger electronic problem or something else), and you have to wait for the ranger to come out?

 

[FlasherZ]

Some of you guys are missing the point. I'm not referring to problerms that may develop over time. I'm not referring to omitted features that may be added via a s/w update. I am referring to problems that exist upon delivery.

Ok, since you're referring to my post, I want to make it clear so everyone knows: my car was not prepped at a local facility. It was prepped in Fremont and direct-shipped to me. The (very large) enclosed transport pulled onto my street and dropped a mummy-wrapped car there, and the DS met me there.

So presumably, during burn-in and PDI, these things were checked, and something may have worked its way loose in transport (GPS antenna connector, or TPMS sensor). These are things the dealer / store would normally catch but they couldn't be because of the direct-ship. A relative of my wife's works for a (non-Tesla) dealership as a manager and mentioned to me that they find this stuff all the time when they receive cars at the dealership -- they fix them before a customer ever sees the car.

 

[Zythryn]

... . What I am saying is that before a car is delivered to a customer, the DS person needs to do a thorough review and repair any problems that exist before delivery. This is what most dealers do before delivering a car to a customer. Most people would likely be content to wait an extra day or two to get the car and not have to deal with follow-up service. And tesla would have the reputation of initial high quality....

Why do you think this isn't happening?
Like others have said, sometimes things happen in transit, rarely something may slip through, heck, Murphy's law says it will happen to some the moment they start the car for the first time.
I agree QC is important and something every company should continually strive to improve. How often do you think this is happening?

J.D. Powers initial quality survey for 2012 has an average rate of issues at 102 per 100 vehicles! While perfection is a great goal, I just think it is unreasonable to expect every car to be perfect.

 

[kevincwelch]

A relative of my wife's works for a (non-Tesla) dealership as a manager and mentioned to me that they find this stuff all the time when they receive cars at the dealership -- they fix them before a customer ever sees the car.

Perhaps Tesla should ship from the factory to the closest regional Tesla repair facility and run a second series of burn in tests before delivering to the customer. This may be difficult now, but as more Tesla repair facilities open, it may be more feasible.

It's nice that the DS goes over everything with the owner, but it would seem like a good thing to do to ensure a working car is received by the owner.

It really should be unacceptable that for an electric car a faulty charging cable is delivered.
Sent via Tapatalk.

 

[swegman]

FlasherZ, and what I am saying is when the car was shipped, once it arrived in your state, the DS person should have checked the car to take care of the problems, and then delivered the car to you. I assume you were happy with the delivery arrangements and OK with the issues being fixed after delivery. But such problems (which I agree can happen during shipping) should have been checked and corrected before the DS person gave you the keys, bacause most people do not want to deal with problems immediately upon taking delivery of a product, be it a car, a computer, a tv, or even a toaster.

We early adopters are tolerant of initial delivery problems. My position is that future buyers will not be tolerant. Lexus is successful because they have a high initial quality rating. That high rating brings in additional sales. It only takes a few reports of initial delivery problems to give Tesla a black eye. I don't want that to happen. I want people to equate Tesla with high quality and no initial delivery problems. That will bring more sales to Tesla

I also realize that this may be a small problem. As they say, those that are happy rarely post, while those that are upset post often. It is those posts that will be picked up by the press that want to destroy Tesla and EV cars. By ensuring zero (as close to zero as possible) defects upon delivery, tesla takes away the amunition used by the anti-Tesla, anti-EV people.

 

[FlasherZ]

Perhaps Tesla should ship from the factory to the closest regional Tesla repair facility and run a second series of burn in tests before delivering to the customer. This may be difficult now, but as more Tesla repair facilities open, it may be more feasible.

This is what normally happens, unless you're in one of the direct-delivery states (TX, MA) or have a special case, like mine. It's called "PDI".

- - - Updated - - -

FlasherZ, and what I am saying is when the car was shipped, once it arrived in your state, the DS person should have checked the car to take care of the problems, and then delivered the car to you.

As mentioned, this is what normally happens. I had a special arrangement due to a scheduling problem, and that's why I have no issues with having the service teams deal with these. The DS came down from Chicago and the transporter (which came from Fremont through St. Louis via I-80/I-70) met him and me at my home. We unwrapped the car together and went over it, finding these.

None of these issues are major stoppers. The car still drives very safely. I can tell you that I'm much happier having the car now with these 3 items to be fixed than having to wait another week while the truck went through St. Louis, past my home, to Chicago and unloaded, then someone did the unwrap, run-through, then returned on another trailer.

Bottom line: I created this situation, not Tesla, otherwise I would have received a car without these issues I'm sure.

 

[ckessel]

Looks like this is an area (final QC) where Tesla's lack of dealerships makes things tougher for them.

 

[Robert.Boston]

FWIW, my wife's BMW 535 has never been at 100%. It's never been so bad that we could invoke the Lemon Laws, but it has been a succession of woe. @swegmann's experience is based on a very small sample set of 5 cars, all of which have been perfect. That's great, but that doesn't mean that every car from BMW/Audi/MB/Lexus arrives in perfect condition.

From what we've read here, a vast majority of the delivered Model Ss have also been perfect. What pops up on these forums, though, are the problems. We have a selection bias in our sample set here: we hear about problems but less about satisfied customers.

 

[brianman]

That's the problem with anecdotal evidence. No car is perfect (just look at initial quality and long term reliability surveys), esp. a first gen car made with new equipment/procedures. Some people will get lucky, some will have the problem but not notice it, etc. It's going to be a process for Tesla QA/QC to catch issues and fix them. The first batch of Signature cars will have to put up with those issues and it's a bit unrealistic to not expect them to occur.

People are finicky and have long memories for negative experiences. A similar example: for every brand of hard drive that you would recognize (i.e. mass market), I have at least one friend or coworker that swears he/she will never buy that brand again.

 

[swegman]

brianman, I know what you mean. People have long memories. I stopped buying American cars (GM, Ford, Chyrsler) over 25 years ago because of poor quality. I keep hearing that the quality of today's American cars is on par with that of Japanese cars. However, I refuse to take the chance. I was burned back then, and am not willing to give them a second chance.

Similarly, I (and friends) had bad experiences with WD and Maxtor (but not Seagate) hard drives in years past and today, we only purchase Seagate drives (eventhough I think WD and Seagate are owned by the same company today.

But thats me. I also refuse to buy Exxon gas because of the oil spill 20+ years ago in Alaska. I have risked running out of gas rather than even buying 1 gallon of Exxon gas. I never blamed them for the oil spill; things happen where humans are involved. But I hold them responsible for lying about the severity of the accident and attempted coverup.

 

[Doug_G]

People are finicky and have long memories for negative experiences. A similar example: for every brand of hard drive that you would recognize (i.e. mass market), I have at least one friend or coworker that swears he/she will never buy that brand again.

Yeah, by now I would have completely run out of hard drive brands if I took that attitude...

I've had cars that were essentially perfect upon delivery, and endured a series of problems afterwards. I'm more concerned about quality engineering and long-term reliability than an occasional glitch upon delivery... as long as it's fixed!

 

[Trnsl8r]

Looks like this is an area (final QC) where Tesla's lack of dealerships makes things tougher for them.

Or rather, where the laws preventing Tesla from owning their own outlets in certain areas is making it tougher for them, and tougher for the consumer.

 

[ckessel]

Or rather, where the laws preventing Tesla from owning their own outlets in certain areas is making it tougher for them, and tougher for the consumer.

I don't recall anything preventing Tesla service centers (which is certainly where QC would be done), just the showrooms.

 

[Trnsl8r]

I don't recall anything preventing Tesla service centers (which is certainly where QC would be done), just the showrooms.

Some of the more sticklier states would probably have a problem with TM shipping the car to a local service center for QC, then deliver to a customer. By shipping the car directly from Fremont to the customer, they can claim it's a direct sale from the factory and not a local, dealership-style delivery. But this is just speculation on my part...

I will claim that the seemingly out-dated dealership laws do not help Tesla deliver quality cars.

 

[strider]

Exactly my point, cinergi. Where I live (Washington, DC suburbs), houses cost from $1M (for what is considered a shack) to about $15M. People drive cars such as MB, Lexus, Bentleys, Porcshe, Ferrari, Masserati. These are the people that can easiest afford a Model S, but they would never put up with these type of problems. They expect perfection, and undivided attention from the dealers. Tesla can not afford to write off these people. Nor can Tesla afford to write off the "regular" guy. They also do not want the hassles associated with fixing problems after the sale.
I was talking to a friend of mine in another state about this today. She opted for an Audi recently instead of a Tesla. When i told her the story, she said that this is unacceptable. Even if Tesla comes to her house to fix such issues, she would still need to take time out of her busy schedule to be there for them to "fix" the car.

Let's look at the data shall we? Go look at JD Powers ratings for Audi: 2012 Audi Ratings, Reviews, Pictures, Research | J.D. Power 2's and 3's out of 5. That discredits your view that these buyers will not put up with the kinds of problems Model S has had. BMW and MB are better than Audi (but still lots of 3's and 4's) so your friend (and the people in your suburbs) clearly doesn't care about quality.

Also, she could have the ranger come to her office. And with Tesla, the ranger will actually FIX the car there. If you're lucky the Audi dealer will give you a loaner (which will be the cheapest and tiniest model they make which may not work for your needs) and keep the car for days while they fix it and then you get it back. Tesla service is WAY more convenient than what is offered by anyone else.

I'm not meaning to belittle your concerns regarding quality - I am concerned about these things as well. I want Tesla to succeed and I expect these problems to resolve as we go (that is one of the reasons I waited until late 2010 to buy my Roadster) but to use the word "perfection" is just asking for disappointment.

 

[swegman]

Strider, maybe things are different where you live, but the MB dealer and the Audi dealer that I bought my cars from deliver a comparable or better car to my house when they pick up my car for service. The loaner is not the cheapest and tineist model as you suggest. Thats pretty convenient, and better than Tesla in the sense that I have a vehicle to drive while mine is being serviced. They would bring the loaner just before I leave for work, and bring my car back when I returned home, based on my schedule.

As for my friend, she runs a business and her point is she does not wish to take the time to get things taken care of that should have been addressed before delivery. Her life is hectic enough, and even if the rangers come to her business or home, there is some amount of time that she would need to devote to the ranger. Time she would prefer devoting to something else.

The bottom line is we all want Tesla to succeed. Sending rangers to a customer's home (office, wherever) to address issues that could have been (should have been)taken care of before delivery is costly, affects the bottom line (and hence profitability) and gives the general buying public the impression that the Model S has issues. Paying more attention to pre-delivery inspections/repairs would result in fewer ranger calls (hence improving the bottom line) and convey that the Model S is every bit as good at delivery time as the best cars on the market.

 

[brianman]

even if the rangers come to her business or home, there is some amount of time that she would need to devote to the ranger.

For many activities (new brake pads), I'm not sure this is strictly true other than (optionally) reading a summary e-mail on what work was done (under warranty). I'm not certain about that though. Perhaps roadster owners can chime in here.

 

[Francis Lau]

As I read this interesting thread, I was thinking how I would react to issues found in my Model S (hopefully delivered in 1-2 months). I think I will be more tolerant since I have my eyes wide open on supporting the electric car industry and Tesla. I also recognize that I am an early adopter. However, I do see the original poster's view that it is important for Tesla to get better and better as more cars are delivered; and as Tesla sells to less rabid fans

That said, I don't think luxury cars are delivered perfect. We bought a 2009 Audi A4 Avant at the end of 2008. It was a new design for that year and we were one of the first few to get the car. We ordered in September and received it at the end of December. Over the first few months, we ran into couple of issues. The most major one was the motorized wagon tailgate would open by itself. My wife would walk out to the car and the back would be opened. Since it was a wagon, it was full access to the car. It happened 2-3 times and over a period of 4 weeks, we brought it in 3 times. Finally, the last time we brought it in, they replaced all the parts related to the faulty system. The problem went away after that. My wife and I were patient throughout the process because:
1. They believed us that it was happening
2. They had loaners so it was not such a pain
3. They felt it was unacceptable and was appalled that it was happening and they gave us extra nice loaners and detailed the car each time

The only other major issue happened 2 months ago where our now 4 years old Audi's front driver's seat had a crease that turned into a tear. We brought it in for an oil change and asked about repairing it. They looked at it and said that an Audi should be sturdier than that and it should not "wear and tear" that easily. They repaired it for free by re-upholstering the seat.

I guess my point is that luxury cars do not come problem free and more importantly is how they work with customers to fix the issues.

 

[pete8314]

Strider, maybe things are different where you live, but the MB dealer and the Audi dealer that I bought my cars from deliver a comparable or better car to my house when they pick up my car for service. The loaner is not the cheapest and tineist model as you suggest. Thats pretty convenient, and better than Tesla in the sense that I have a vehicle to drive while mine is being serviced. They would bring the loaner just before I leave for work, and bring my car back when I returned home, based on my schedule..

Same experience here, had an S5 as my last Audi loaner, and before that just about everything from an A4 to A7. No R8 regrettably. I've always wondered why some dealers put you in a POS car, when its a great opportunity to continue to sell you on the brand, and maybe your next car.

Anyway, I'm not saying the Tesla service model is bad, but it's not for everyone, and Audi, in my experience in both the UK and US do a great job with customer service.

 

[CyberDutchie]

I also refuse to buy Exxon gas because of the oil spill 20+ years ago in Alaska. I have risked running out of gas rather than even buying 1 gallon of Exxon gas. I never blamed them for the oil spill; things happen where humans are involved. But I hold them responsible for lying about the severity of the accident and attempted coverup.

OT, but just out of curiosity, are you also skipping BP and Arco (owned by BP) after the Deepwater Horizon Gulf spill 2010? And the Alaskan pipeline spill in 2006? What about Shell (Amoco Cadiz, 1971)?