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Improving brake "feel"

Electric Dream

Pilots the Millennium Milkfloat
Jul 21, 2016
1,683
2,759
UK
track/race pads on street are a terrible idea. universally: they need heat to be effective. i would argue it's even more important here with regen, since when you DO need the brakes, they will not work. more dependant on the pad: some track compounds are caustic and will eat your wheel finish.
No, that's simply not true. Several of us are using track pads here in the UK for street driving and they have much better bite and feel when completely cold compared to the OE Tesla pads. I agree that some pad compounds can be more corrosive, but there are also some very good ones out there which are not.
 
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ngng

Member
Jul 23, 2018
821
353
Bay Area
No, that's simply not true. Several of us are using track pads here in the UK for street driving and they have much better bite and feel when completely cold compared to the OE Tesla pads. I agree that some pad compounds can be more corrosive, but there are also some very good ones out there which are not.

i guess it depends what you consider a track pad. there are pads that are sold as track pads, but in reality, they are street pads. there are some "hybrid" stree/track pads. what I am talking about is a true track pad like the pfc 8/11; ct/gloc 10+. to each their own. it might work fine for you, it doesn't mean it's a good idea (as all the pad mfgs will also state).
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,194
1,539
The Woodlands, TX
Has anyone actually bedded the brakes on these cars? I used min the other day and was disappointed, then remembered....they get so little use that I wouldn't be surprised if there is zero pad material on the rotors! I need to find a road where I can take the car out and bed the brakes by putting it in Neutral at 60. Not so easy to do.
 

ngng

Member
Jul 23, 2018
821
353
Bay Area
Has anyone actually bedded the brakes on these cars? I used min the other day and was disappointed, then remembered....they get so little use that I wouldn't be surprised if there is zero pad material on the rotors! I need to find a road where I can take the car out and bed the brakes by putting it in Neutral at 60. Not so easy to do.

...why are you putting your car into neutral at 60? that's actually dangerous lol. just get on the brakes. street pads don't need crazy stops to bed in street pads. just a handful of moderate speed stops.
 

Needsdecaf

Active Member
Dec 16, 2018
1,194
1,539
The Woodlands, TX
...why are you putting your car into neutral at 60? that's actually dangerous lol. just get on the brakes. street pads don't need crazy stops to bed in street pads. just a handful of moderate speed stops.

Because considering how much regen braking force these cars generate, even in low, it would heat up the pads more quickly. Having put the car in neutral and coasted at 40mph on down a number of times, there isn't anything dangerous about it. A quick tap on the stalk and you're back in drive. Moreover, I'd be doing 60-5 MPH stops away from traffic anyway so no worries about having to dodge people or cars.

Speaking of which, thanks, I just thought of an absolutely perfect place to do this!

Having said that, I can't remember the last time I drove in low much less tried to do this, so perhaps it would work.
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,197
1,439
Left Coast
Has anyone actually bedded the brakes on these cars? I used min the other day and was disappointed, then remembered....they get so little use that I wouldn't be surprised if there is zero pad material on the rotors! I need to find a road where I can take the car out and bed the brakes by putting it in Neutral at 60. Not so easy to do.

I have (inadvertently) when trying to diagnose a weird thumping sensation a number of months ago under braking. You'd be surprised how hot they get only after a handful of 50 - 5 mph stops. On the completely stock P3D- setup, I could feel insane heat radiating out of every single wheel well from 2 - 3 feet away.
 

Electric Dream

Pilots the Millennium Milkfloat
Jul 21, 2016
1,683
2,759
UK
i guess it depends what you consider a track pad. there are pads that are sold as track pads, but in reality, they are street pads. there are some "hybrid" stree/track pads. what I am talking about is a true track pad like the pfc 8/11; ct/gloc 10+. to each their own. it might work fine for you, it doesn't mean it's a good idea (as all the pad mfgs will also state).
I consider a track pad something like a Carbotech XP10 or RB XT970. I have PFC 11 on my car right now and they make no noise and work great from cold. Have you actually tried these pads on a Model 3 on the street or are you just assuming they won't work well?
 

Electric Dream

Pilots the Millennium Milkfloat
Jul 21, 2016
1,683
2,759
UK
Has anyone actually bedded the brakes on these cars? I used min the other day and was disappointed, then remembered....they get so little use that I wouldn't be surprised if there is zero pad material on the rotors! I need to find a road where I can take the car out and bed the brakes by putting it in Neutral at 60. Not so easy to do.
No Model 3 comes with brake pads bedded, which is why all new owners complain about the brakes. Once bedded the factory pads work a lot better, but still not as good as an uprated pad and certainly not good enough for anything other than a short/slow track.
 

holmgang

Active Member
Sep 9, 2019
1,294
1,305
eu
i think the brake feel on my P is very rubbish. sensation is extremely dull. the upside is that i rarely have to use the friction brakes hard since regen takes care of most of the decel
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
951
695
Prague
i guess it depends what you consider a track pad. there are pads that are sold as track pads, but in reality, they are street pads. there are some "hybrid" stree/track pads. what I am talking about is a true track pad like the pfc 8/11; ct/gloc 10+. to each their own. it might work fine for you, it doesn't mean it's a good idea (as all the pad mfgs will also state).
That all is correct in comparison with average street pads - cold bite is lower than stock. Model 3 has VERY low bite, so none of high mu track pads are going to be that low even when cold.
 
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asian_xl

Member
Apr 24, 2016
256
185
Hong Kong
I also believe the stock pad has to be bedded. both bedded and non-bedded stock brakes feel quite different even at low speed city driving. Most people set it to high regen, so even after 5K miles and the brake still like new. I can't imagine how the track pads behave at low temp.
 
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ngng

Member
Jul 23, 2018
821
353
Bay Area
I consider a track pad something like a Carbotech XP10 or RB XT970. I have PFC 11 on my car right now and they make no noise and work great from cold. Have you actually tried these pads on a Model 3 on the street or are you just assuming they won't work well?
yeah those are def track pads. i've tried xp12s on a street driven m3p and it was really bad.
 

Electric Dream

Pilots the Millennium Milkfloat
Jul 21, 2016
1,683
2,759
UK
I've gone from brand new unbedded stock brakes to BBK with track pads (PFC 11) on my M3P, with many variations in between.
When the car was delivered, the brakes were not bedded at all. I took the pads out after tha car had done 50 miles and the pad surfaces were only about 60% in contact with the rotors. This is why new owners complain,

I bedded the stock pads in properly and once that happened, braking was improved substancially. I even got into an M-Sport BMW one day after driving my M3P and I can tell you I was very surprised as the brakes on that didn't feel that much better, so now I knew the stock M3P brakes were properly bedded. After that, if you want to take the car on track, you have to deal with the rotors overheating so that leads you to track pads and eventually a BBK. But the biggest improvement to the feel was bedding those stock brakes in properly. After that, the gains don't feel as dramatic.

I don't reduce regen when bedding pads unless I'm in a hurry and need to do it quickly, which is not the best way anyway. As long as you build up the temperature gradually, reach the recommended temperature and allow them to cool in the proper way, you can do it without regen if you know what you're doing.
 
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ngng

Member
Jul 23, 2018
821
353
Bay Area
I've gone from brand new unbedded stock brakes to BBK with track pads (PFC 11) on my M3P, with many variations in between.
When the car was delivered, the brakes were not bedded at all. I took the pads out after tha car had done 50 miles and the pad surfaces were only about 60% in contact with the rotors. This is why new owners complain,

I bedded the stock pads in properly and once that happened, braking was improved substancially. I even got into an M-Sport BMW one day after driving my M3P and I can tell you I was very surprised as the brakes on that didn't feel that much better, so now I knew the stock M3P brakes were properly bedded. After that, if you want to take the car on track, you have to deal with the rotors overheating so that leads you to track pads and eventually a BBK. But the biggest improvement to the feel was bedding those stock brakes in properly. After that, the gains don't feel as dramatic.

I don't reduce regen when bedding pads unless I'm in a hurry and need to do it quickly, which is not the best way anyway. As long as you build up the temperature gradually, reach the recommended temperature and allow them to cool in the proper way, you can do it without regen if you know what you're doing.

^^ i would even add, regen is going to help you with bedding. once you've got the friction material transferred you don't want to be on the brakes at all until they cool
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,197
1,439
Left Coast
^^ i would even add, regen is going to help you with bedding. once you've got the friction material transferred you don't want to be on the brakes at all until they cool

Did my first auto-x in my P3D- today - I noticed in track mode Hold mode doesn't apply. Someone at Tesla knows what they're doing.
 

Dolemite

is my name
Sep 19, 2019
1,197
1,439
Left Coast
what did you think about the nannies? my friend has a few colorful thoughts on them

Honestly I don't find it to be *that* intrusive, but there are definitely times where I can tell the car is waiting for me to straighten the steering wheel to "let it rip." I tend to believe that those are the times I'm driving poorly... but the rest of the time when I'm driving well/smoothly, it's hard to notice because it should be staying mostly out of the way, anyway. But yes, even at -10, there are definitely still nannies engaged. It's just way too easy to control a drift and it's still trying to keep things tidy.

You have to wonder, though - does it make sense for an EV to have all TCS completely "off?" I dunno... maybe someone with MPP's party box has a better answer, but there's no "natural" inertia to the engine or rev limiter on an EV, so I think it could get really weird?
 

ngng

Member
Jul 23, 2018
821
353
Bay Area
Honestly I don't find it to be *that* intrusive, but there are definitely times where I can tell the car is waiting for me to straighten the steering wheel to "let it rip." I tend to believe that those are the times I'm driving poorly... but the rest of the time when I'm driving well/smoothly, it's hard to notice because it should be staying mostly out of the way, anyway. But yes, even at -10, there are definitely still nannies engaged. It's just way too easy to control a drift and it's still trying to keep things tidy.

You have to wonder, though - does it make sense for an EV to have all TCS completely "off?" I dunno... maybe someone with MPP's party box has a better answer, but there's no "natural" inertia to the engine or rev limiter on an EV, so I think it could get really weird?

i should probably have qualified my statement with he has a few colorful thoughts about the systems on track pushing the car at the limit. 100% should keep that stuff on zipping around on the street or for spirited drives

I do think, you should always have the option to turn *everything* off. a car doing one thing when you expect it to do another is never good
 

Mash

Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
951
695
Prague
i should probably have qualified my statement with he has a few colorful thoughts about the systems on track pushing the car at the limit. 100% should keep that stuff on zipping around on the street or for spirited drives

I do think, you should always have the option to turn *everything* off. a car doing one thing when you expect it to do another is never good
If you turn everything off - it won't move.
Where is this line? I feel that at -10 what car does is quite well predictable. And I actually doubt that you can go faster with it doing nothing in a controlled environment. You need it at least to do active differential thing and apply some torque limit curves based on what is going on. But it's adaptable and learning what torque is available. Pro racing driver told me that he doesn't feel anything except active diff (brakes application). So if there is anything, it's not a lot.
 

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