Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[AnxietyRanger]

I just thought of another scenario: you are borrowing someone else's car, so you do not have the app.
My guess is that 8.1 or some future release will have the warnings there.

And how does this work for that Model S loaner you get for three weeks while your Model X is again in the shop?

 

[Az_Rael]

And how does this work for that Model S loaner you get for three weeks while your Model X is again in the shop?

Good question. I think they will have to add SMS or phone call notifications as an option. Or service loaners will be whitelisted out of idle fees. Who knows.

It seems to be part of the "fun" of watching Tesla write policies live on the blog/twitter

 

[sorka]

I don't agree. I think she's an outlier to one side, if you're an outlier to the other.

And I don't mean any disrespect to you or your wife, but if someone won't own or drive a car because they have to consider others in their decision process, then the policy has been validated. It has motivated a change that improves access to Superchargers. Whether that achieves Tesla's other goals is up to them to decide. But this policy is about "Improving Supercharger Availability."

Then her entire family and her friends are also outliers as this has been discussed with most of them. And guess what? They're just like her

None of them are going to stay glued to the app which is what it takes to properly manage end charge returns to your car.

I'm happy to do it but none of them will.

 

[sorka]

I
4. While you are gently slicing through your filet mignon, or slowly sipping your pumpkin slice latte, or savoring your Happy Meal, unbeknownst to you, one of two things happens:

a. The charge rate on your car sudden speeds up because the gentlemen you paired with finished (there were no unpaired stalls available when you arrived). Now, following the rule above, instead of 50 minutes to completion, it is only 35 minutes to completion. You receive a text notification that your charge is almost complete. Idle fees will begin in 15 minutes (50- 35)
You still get charged idle fees based on the initial 50 minutes estimate, not on the new 35 minutes. Though, because you are a considerate person, you move your car early anyway, or​

b. The charge rate on your car suddenly drops because the charge handle got too hot. It is now going to take 65 minutes to complete your charge.
You get charged an idle fee when the car completes charging at 65 minutes, not 50.​

This is exactly what my wife, who isn't going to pulling out her phone all the time to check said she'd be fine with. If the car can tell her when the charge is guaranteed to be finished and to return by that point, she's willing to do that. If the charge rate suddenly sped up and finished earlier, she'd still only be held to the conservative finish time. Of course if she gets back when it originally said, and there was a sudden slowdown(which will only happen if there's an actual problem), then she won't trust it.

So it's in Tesla's best interest to make sure they maintain the network so it doesn't experience sudden slowdowns like it did for her in Manteca when it started out at 100+KW but suddenly dropped to 14 KW after a minute. If the predicted return time had been based on the initial starting charge, she would have gotten back and discovered she only had 20% of the charge she needed.

I'm just relaying what she's ok with. Me? I personally prefer to micromanage the entire thing every few minutes and make sure that I'm still charging as fast as I should and that I'm there to move the car the instant it finishes.

 

[sorka]

I just thought of another scenario: you are borrowing someone else's car, so you do not have the app.
My guess is that 8.1 or some future release will have the warnings there.

Will Tesla have to charge themselves for idle fees on loaners or will they charge customer? Might be a good time for Tesla to develop that cloud profile feature I've been asking for so that Tesla can swap your car with theirs and it's like your car when you take off with it including app access.

 

[sorka]

One other thing and forgive me if it's already been discussed. I don't think Tesla should wait to charge you the fees until your next service visit. That could be a year or more for some people. There will be those who just ignore notifications or any other form of communication and then when they do bring it in and they're told they need to pay their $20K idling bill, they're going to act like this is the first time they've heard of it. I'm really talking about the worst offenders who think they own the world and will just do what they want and then try anything to slip out of the consequences despite ample warning.

I'd be perfectly fine with Tesla requiring us to put a card on file now and that we get charged idle fees as they happen. It'll be a lot harder for Tesla to try and collect a huge bill from an irate customer who *claims* they had no idea vs small fees here and there where they see them on their credit card bills as reminders of the *reminders* they already received.

 

[4SUPER9]

What an amazing world we live in. In the future, when many people do not own cars, and they simply walk up to any available car or summon one, everything will be tied to you personally and seamlessly as you walk in, either through your smart device, or the mandatory implanted sensor in your brain. Your fees will be automatically charged to your credit card on file. And, if you do not move your car from a Supercharger in a prompt fashion, the sensor in your brain will trigger the bladder control center, making you wet yourself. Of course, people will learn how scan the system by watching the clock and using the bathroom facilities in a just-timely fashion. Either that, or they sit in the nearby Starbucks wearing a diaper with a big grin on their face.

 

[ohmman]

But seriously: What is your (or others) gut feeling, is it helping?

Also to return to the other point of my message - the main issue here isn't consideration. There are of course tons of both considerate, inconsiderate and everything in-between people in the world, that's a given. We agree to like considerate people better than inconsiderate people, sure. But that's almost beside the point. What is the point is that all those people will usually gravitate towards solutions they subjectively find reasonable and appealing (not necessarily in that order).

You can be the most considerate person (manners-wise) on the planet and yet choose not to bother yourself with an unreasonable EV charging regime, if the ICE does its thing for you without such issues. That's the real competition for the mindshare of people like sorka's wife, whom I don't think we know enough about to say isn't considerate...

She may well be very much considerate, but simply considers unreasonable the demands an EV is seen as imposing on her, when a perfectly good alternative exists: the ICE. If so, her issue aren't the other people at the charger that she wants to trample on with her alleged bad manners, her issue is sorka who put her in that predicament in the first place. If so, she'd be very happy behaving nicely and considerately at the gas tank, because that would seem reasonable to her... Jumping through all these idiotic-to-her hoops to drive an EV would simply be unreasonable.

Keep adding demands instead of taking them away and you are pushing people like sorka's wife away from EVs, not towards them.

It has very little to do with consideration for others - or lack thereof - and everything to do with what is subjectively seen as a superior solution.

As far as whether this is helping or not, I wasn't kidding - it's not a very good question. It's a holiday week, the policy was just announced, and many (most) people are just now hearing about it. Nobody has been charged an actual penny, unless they ran straight to their Service Center and paid. And I'll reiterate what I said before - I wouldn't be surprised to see Service Centers waive fees. To try to get a feel for it right now is a fool's exercise. The earliest time we could gauge would be after a few months, when the policy is well known, widespread, and the punitive measures have been realized.

You and @msnow have given me some food for thought on how the split lies between inconsiderate owners (there are surely some of those), and just unaware owners. My son has a condition where he cannot hurry and doesn't have a good sense of time. The poor kid has a father, mother, and sister who are all type A personalities. Timeliness is our drug. So I'll try to give it some thought through my son's eyes.

 

[sorka]

And I'll reiterate what I said before - I wouldn't be surprised to see Service Centers waive fees. To try to get a feel for it right now is a fool's exercise. The earliest time we could gauge would be after a few months, when the policy is well known, widespread, and the punitive measures have been realized.

This is my fear. I fear Tesla will be forgiving to those worst offender squeaky wheels and it will take the teeth out of the policy unless they require a card now on file and charge as you go the idling fees as they accrue.

 

[Lloyd]

This is my fear. I fear Tesla will be forgiving to those worst offender squeaky wheels and it will take the teeth out of the policy unless they require a card now on file and charge as you go the idling fees as they accrue.

I agree, a card on file to be able to supercharge is what is needed.

Combine this with an agreement for idle fees to keep the lawyers happy.

 

[TexasEV]

One other thing and forgive me if it's already been discussed. I don't think Tesla should wait to charge you the fees until your next service visit. That could be a year or more for some people. There will be those who just ignore notifications or any other form of communication and then when they do bring it in and they're told they need to pay their $20K idling bill, they're going to act like this is the first time they've heard of it. I'm really talking about the worst offenders who think they own the world and will just do what they want and then try anything to slip out of the consequences despite ample warning.

I'd be perfectly fine with Tesla requiring us to put a card on file now and that we get charged idle fees as they happen. It'll be a lot harder for Tesla to try and collect a huge bill from an irate customer who *claims* they had no idea vs small fees here and there where they see them on their credit card bills as reminders of the *reminders* they already received.

That's likely where they're heading. The pay at service visit was likely just to get the idle fee in place right away.

 

[4SUPER9]

That's likely where they're heading. The pay at service visit was likely just to get the idle fee in pace right away.

I believe everyone is correct. My guess is that no one will be charged these fees until a credit card is on file. The current messages and announcements are to scare off the offenders.

 

[Krugerrand]

Then her entire family and her friends are also outliers as this has been discussed with most of them. And guess what? They're just like her

None of them are going to stay glued to the app which is what it takes to properly manage end charge returns to your car.

That is because;

a) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - she learned her habits, beliefs, philosophies etc... from her family
I was taught by my parents to be considerate of others, always. The world does not revolve around me or what I want. That is a theme that has followed my family for generations

b) we attract to us people of like mind - friends
None of my friends would ever consider being rude like your wife would because I place high value on considerate people and therefore wouldn't associate with those who weren't.

I'm not sure which group of people is more mainstream. It likely varies depending on country, region, culture etc...

 

[sorka]

That is because;

a) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - she learned her habits, beliefs, philosophies etc... from her family
I was taught by my parents to be considerate of others, always. The world does not revolve around me or what I want. That is a theme that has followed my family for generations

Here family are some of the most considerate people I've ever met which was one factor in asking her to marry me. But they're not techy people and they won't watchdog an app. Half of the ones that have smartphones don't use any apps...they just use them as phones. The other half know how to run one app which is typically Facebook. The young kids are different which is why I have hope that someday this won't be as big an issue.

 

[4SUPER9]

That is because;

a) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - she learned her habits, beliefs, philosophies etc... from her family
I was taught by my parents to be considerate of others, always. The world does not revolve around me or what I want. That is a theme that has followed my family for generations

b) we attract to us people of like mind - friends
None of my friends would ever consider being rude like your wife would because I place high value on considerate people and therefore wouldn't associate with those who weren't.

I'm not sure which group of people is more mainstream. It likely varies depending on country, region, culture etc...

I am not sure if this is an appropriate response. Though I have not read the other thread in detail, my suspicion is that his wife if simply not a techophile. My fiance hates technology, and has refused to take my Tesla on road trips when I offered it to her. She does not want to stop and charge (twice) and her way to Phoenix when she can make it on 1 tank of gas with plenty to spare. Adding a layer of complexity such as monitoring an app would send her over the edge. I get it, and will gently continue to bring her into the 21st century. I also agree with what Tesla is doing here with these fees, and willing to do that myself. I am excited about all this stuff.

Calling her rude though, not cool.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As far as whether this is helping or not, I wasn't kidding - it's not a very good question. It's a holiday week, the policy was just announced, and many (most) people are just now hearing about it. Nobody has been charged an actual penny, unless they ran straight to their Service Center and paid. And I'll reiterate what I said before - I wouldn't be surprised to see Service Centers waive fees. To try to get a feel for it right now is a fool's exercise. The earliest time we could gauge would be after a few months, when the policy is well known, widespread, and the punitive measures have been realized.

Well, be it a good question or not, it was a genuine one and, really, a rather simple one. Anyone see any change for the better? I am all ears. Though granted I would assume that if the idle charge really was attacking the root cause (i.e. abuse was the issue), this might bring quick results, I was mostly curious if any change had been registered, not making long-term judgements. I guess you are saying it has not in your roundabout way.

I have no problem with us following up on this months later, of course. I'm sure TMC will. I agree some changes can only be seen over time, including many aspects of this one. Of course. It goes the other way too, any negative sentiment registered now may mellow down later on (or it can get worse). Still, I *am* interested in the immediate reactions. I guess as far as queues in California go, there has not been an immediate reaction towards the better?

You and @msnow have given me some food for thought on how the split lies between inconsiderate owners (there are surely some of those), and just unaware owners. My son has a condition where he cannot hurry and doesn't have a good sense of time. The poor kid has a father, mother, and sister who are all type A personalities. Timeliness is our drug. So I'll try to give it some thought through my son's eyes.

While I do respect the personal anecdote, moving beyond it I would like to stress that I don't think the question is merely that of being unaware, let alone not being a type A personality when it comes to idle charges.

It is not a mark of an unaware person to appreciate a schedule, for example. Supercharging idle charges take control of the schedule and mess it up, because they are based on "random" engineering mathematics, instead of punctuality for example. It is not a mark of timeliness to finish early and expect everyone to be there too, quite the contrary.

Indeed, Superchargers are the antithesis of timeliness. They would be terribly bad mannered, were they people.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

That is because;

a) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - she learned her habits, beliefs, philosophies etc... from her family
I was taught by my parents to be considerate of others, always. The world does not revolve around me or what I want. That is a theme that has followed my family for generations

b) we attract to us people of like mind - friends
None of my friends would ever consider being rude like your wife would because I place high value on considerate people and therefore wouldn't associate with those who weren't.

I'm not sure which group of people is more mainstream. It likely varies depending on country, region, culture etc...

Oh the irony.

People are now considered inconsiderate for the sin of not wanting to have have a mobile app run theirs lives. Being back at a pre-agreed time is considered inconsiderate.

As tempting as that conclusion may be, I would still argue there is more to this than being considerate of others.

There is that middle ground somewhere...

 

[msnow]

That is because;

a) the apple doesn't fall far from the tree - she learned her habits, beliefs, philosophies etc... from her family
I was taught by my parents to be considerate of others, always. The world does not revolve around me or what I want. That is a theme that has followed my family for generations

b) we attract to us people of like mind - friends
None of my friends would ever consider being rude like your wife would because I place high value on considerate people and therefore wouldn't associate with those who weren't.

I'm not sure which group of people is more mainstream. It likely varies depending on country, region, culture etc...

So you're saying that if we ever read a rude, inconsiderate or condescending post under your screen name we should blame your parents?

 

[sorka]

So you're saying that if we ever read a rude, inconsiderate or condescending post under your screen name we should blame your parents?

Oh the irony indeed

 

[ohmman]

This is my fear. I fear Tesla will be forgiving to those worst offender squeaky wheels and it will take the teeth out of the policy unless they require a card now on file and charge as you go the idling fees as they accrue.

Generally, I have a similar worry. However, I do believe the shame of being face to face with Service Center personnel that you already know may be a good deterrent as well. "Oh, I see you overstayed 23 hours this year at Superchargers?"

Well, be it a good question or not, it was a genuine one and, really, a rather simple one. Anyone see any change for the better? I am all ears. Though granted I would assume that if the idle charge really was attacking the root cause (i.e. abuse was the issue), this might bring quick results, I was mostly curious if any change had been registered, not making long-term judgements. I guess you are saying it has not in your roundabout way.

I haven't visited a Supercharger since the change. I don't have any long drives scheduled until January. I also don't live near any that I would see regularly, so I cannot respond about what I see. My guess is that they're swamped with Christmas shoppers.

I didn't know I had a roundabout way to me. I know a few other participants around here who might be considered to have one, though....

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Generally, I have a similar worry. However, I do believe the shame of being face to face with Service Center personnel that you already know may be a good deterrent as well. "Oh, I see you overstayed 23 hours this year at Superchargers?"

Are you guys sure wishing for or salivating in customer shaming is really a good idea? I mean, I get it. One's worse angels at too long a queue might prompt such thinkings, but aren't most of us actually trying to increase EV acceptance and adoption? Some may even have TSLA long etc.?

How well do you think that EV adoption and Tesla sales will be going in the mainstream if part of the experience is being lectured by Service Center? It is already bad enough Tesla shamelessly discussed any and all accident logs involving a Tesla in public.

I would love to see sorka's wife get a lecture at an SC... That second Tesla wouid be on order any day now!

I haven't visited a Supercharger since the change. I don't have any long drives scheduled until January. I also don't live near any that I would see regularly, so I cannot respond about what I see. My guess is that they're swamped with Christmas shoppers.

I didn't know I had a roundabout way to me. I know a few other participants around here who might be considered to have one, though....

Fair enough. I for one would appreciate your experiences when you do, over time.