Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[AnxietyRanger]

You keep saying this, and since I don't have the same experience (but don't doubt that it's possible), can you refer me to some supporting body of evidence? I've seen a couple of anecdotes here, but no real cohesive evidence. It would be interesting for me to digest.

Producing a body of evidence sounds an unrealistic effort, but here is one anecdote on Supercharger condition from this thread.

The other scenario, the stall sharing issue, has been discussed many times on this forum. I doubt that is news to anyone.

4) They need to notify is when the charging rate has dramatically increased. Just yesterday I was at Red Robin in Manteca. We spent an hour there eating lunch but only needed about 10 minutes of charging. However, the supercharger would only charge 30KW. I was in 3b. Nobody was in 3a. It said would take 40 minutes to charge. I checked it again 20 minutes later and it said 20 minutes left. So far so good except for the slowness but I wasn't in a rush this time otherwise I would have swapped until I got a good charge rate. Then I checked int 10 minutes later and it said it was done. WTF????? When I checked VT at home, I'd discovered that about 21 minutes into charging, the charge rate jumped up to 84KW and quickly reached the 60% setpoint ( I was only 60 miles from home). Did I just get charged a fee for staying in that spot for 10 minutes after finshing? I checked like 3 times throughout and never got an app notification even though the car was connected this time. I didn't receive any notifications of overages but then again my app is 3 months old since last updated and there is no new update.

 

[TexasEV]

But there is the problem that some people don't have a smartphone, or don't have a compatible smartphone. (Tesla still doesn't provide a Windows 10 app.) If they provided SMS notifications then this wouldn't be an issue.

If those people are so bothered by not knowing exactly when their charging would finish, they could get a compatable smartphone. If they don't want the convenience of a compatable smartphone, they'll just have to err or being back at their car too early rather than too late. This probably isn't the only inconvenience people without Android or iPhones suffer.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

What if 1A is a 60 with a 75 pack, so it doesn't really taper?

In practice I still wouldn't expect it to matter. The phone alert should give you plenty of time, especially if you set your limit to 100%. Or if you're anxious about it, watch your phone.

It is widely documented here that the app is unreliable, especially its notifications. So yes, keep watching the phone.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If those people are so bothered by not knowing exactly when their charging would finish, they could get a compatable smartphone. If they don't want the convenience of a compatable smartphone, they'll just have to err or being back at their car too early rather than too late. This probably isn't the only inconvenience people without Android or iPhones suffer.

The bigger issue is probably the culture of using a smartphone app for such a purpose. I can see the millennials and techies being okay about it, but more conservative audiences would probably appreciate a guaranteed time they can return at and not face punitive charges.

I wonder what such requirements will do to EV adoption. A comparison: Watching a phone app to know when your paid parking ends? Doesn't sound something that would fly with a lot of people. Maybe in time...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

After all these pages (some I've written on), the thing I don't get, is that if you are a reasonable person and occasionally mistime returning to your car by small amounts, then you might have $5 to $25 of fees at your next service appointment. Then, and we don't know this, maybe they waive or discount them if under a certain threshold.

Well, I guess it could be argued a reasonable person should not be subjected to such charges ever - perhaps excluding that rare moment of lapse when you forgot you left your car at a Supercharger (similar to a speeding ticket once a decade for a reasonable driver). Avoiding the penalties should be reasonably avoidable.

But moving on to the math:

Let's say you visit a Supercharger three times a week. Each week one of those times you sovershoot by 10 minutes, resulting on $4 penalty (in reality sometimes you wouldn't, othertimes you would more). At your next annual service visit, you will have accumulated $208 of penalties, a significant addition to your annual charges. Add in there that one significant mistake and it is much more. Frankly, the grace is tight enough and the charge high enough - and those service visits rare enough - that I'm not sure $5-$25 is the reality for anyone actively using Superchargers (unless using them very defensively). If you are suddenly adding 25-50% to your service center bill, that stops being an insignificant line there. No?

And I'm not talking abusers here. Just people who make a reasonable use of the system.

I'm also confused that it seems many here will pop an artery trying to rush back to their car in mortal terror of a small charge, but wouldn't bother crossing a street or take a 15 minute hike if they were told there was a coffee tin guaranteed to have a $5 spot for them inside at the end of the walk because their time is so valuable to them.

I doubt the mortal terror is the charge. It is the displeasure associated with penalties. Who wants random penalties? Why would anyone engage in activities that can result in random penalties? Which a supercharging event based on the (random) completion time basically is. Of course the answer is, people who find the benefits exceeding the issues. There certainly are lots of those and an EV enthusiast forum like this has a great deal of them. But for "regular" people who have no special allegiance to EVs, they may just think taking the ICE is the simpler choice rather than dealing with random-seeming timings and penalties they can not possibly understand...

...and that they have to pay by the bulk once a year.

This whole thing has come about because their are abusers (mostly in California, or super high density areas) that charge and park overnight, or all day while at work. They more than likely got the car without having any sort of home charging themselves. Tesla was problably ok with this at first, just wanting to sell cars, and might even still be ok with this if owners charged and moved. But as we know in California, many charge and park, which just doesn't work here.

Sure. But a 5 minute grace would not be needed to solve those overnight parkers. A much more reasonable regime would fix that.

 

[sorka]

I'm sure Tesla can automatically not charge folks if the charge rate suddenly increased and the charged finished faster than originally estimated. If it finishes sooner than estimated from the start, obviously you shouldn't be charged. Of course this means Tesla needs to keep the network in good functioning order so you don't get these crazy slow charging speeds for no apparent reason other than the stack simply isn't working like it should.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm sure Tesla can automatically not charge folks if the charge rate suddenly increased and the charged finished faster than originally estimated. If it finishes sooner than estimated from the start, obviously you shouldn't be charged. Of course this means Tesla needs to keep the network in good functioning order so you don't get these crazy slow charging speeds for no apparent reason other than the stack simply isn't working like it should.

That opinion unfortunately has not received much traction on this thread. But I agree, if the idle charge started at original estimation only, not sooner I would have no issue with it. It would be predictable to regular, reasonable people. All good. (If for some reason it then took longer, the car should give a new estimate and stick to that instead.)

I would support a 0 minute grace. People can be expected to return at a pre-determined time. That is normal courtesy and completely reasonable.

 

[KJD]

The problem is the unpredictable ending time makes planning for return hard. It can quickly vary by many tens of minutes depending on stall condition and sharing.

This is simply not true. The charging cycle is very easy to manage and has been explained to you muiltiple times.

You simply refuse to listen to reason.

 

[sorka]

This is simply not true. The charging cycle is very easy to manage and has been explained to you muiltiple times.

You simply refuse to listen to reason.

So my experience in Manteca didn't happen????

 

[KJD]

So my experience in Manteca didn't happen????

No I did not say that at all.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This is simply not true. The charging cycle is very easy to manage and has been explained to you muiltiple times.

You simply refuse to listen to reason.

No. I just disagree with your assessment, which I consider false.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

But OK, to you folks that disagree with my premise that supercharging is inherently an imprecise endeavour - timing-wise.

How accurate is the estimate your car gives you upon leaving it? +/- 1 minute? +/- 5 minutes? Something else? Would you trust it?

 

[Garlan Garner]

Ive been told that the charging times vary at the same exact charger depending on how many cars are plugged into adjacent stalls.

 

[KJD]

But OK, to you folks that disagree with my premise that supercharging is inherently an imprecise endeavour - timing-wise.
How accurate is the estimate your car gives you upon leaving it? +/- 1 minute? +/- 5 minutes? Something else? Would you trust it?

The number is an estimate. Nothing more. I never expected it to be accurate to the exact second or exact minute even.

The rated miles is a much more important number. (also an estimate) When I am traveling I only need enough range to make the next stop plus a safety margin.

The time to unplug and leave is sometime after I have enough charge to make the next stop and before the charge finishes. That is normally much more time than just the 5 minutes that you like complain about so much.

How often do you use a supercharger anyway ?

 

[NOLA_Mike]

It is widely documented here that the app is unreliable, especially its notifications. So yes, keep watching the phone.

Here's an idea - Unplug your car and move it when it's done supercharging. If you can't figure out a better way than standing at the car watching it, then stand there and watch it and unplug your car and move it when it's done supercharging.

Are you here to cause Anxiety?

 

[Camera-Cruiser]

Let's say you visit a Supercharger three times a week. Each week one of those times you sovershoot by 10 minutes, resulting on $4 penalty (in reality sometimes you wouldn't, othertimes you would more). At your next annual service visit, you will have accumulated $208 of penalties, a significant addition to your annual charges. Add in there that one significant mistake and it is much more. Frankly, the grace is tight enough and the charge high enough - and those service visits rare enough - that I'm not sure $5-$25 is the reality for anyone actively using Superchargers (unless using them very defensively). If you are suddenly adding 25-50% to your service center bill, that stops being an insignificant line there. No?

I'd argue that anyone overshooting the grace period 33% of the time on a weekly basis, is exactly who should be charged.
No?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'd argue that anyone overshooting the grace period 33% of the time on a weekly basis, is exactly who should be charged.
No?

I would respectfully disagree. We can get that number to 100% by setting an unreasonable finishing time and a grace. Make it completely random and you get everyone on the charge. That is basically my point - when you only have a 5 minute grace and the supercharging completion can vary tens of minutes of original estimate, reasonable people can miss it quite unintentionally.

Of course, if you believe estimating supercharging finish by a 5 minute accuracy is something that anyone can reasonable and reliably do every time, your opinion differs. That's okay. But just so you get my point: I do not think it is, hence my different opinion.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Here's an idea - Unplug your car and move it when it's done supercharging. If you can't figure out a better way than standing at the car watching it, then stand there and watch it and unplug your car and move it when it's done supercharging.

Are you here to cause Anxiety?

Yes, unplug your car and move it when done supercharging certainly is the idea behind the 5 minute grace. I agree with that.

And I also would agree with the notion that there are many people in this world that probably would have to stand by the car (or rather, sit in it to see the screen) to reliably estimate when supercharging ends by a 5 minute margin. Watching an app and needing engineering understanding to know when it ends does not sound like a very massmarket approach to me.

Now comes my beef: I think such a thing would be harmful to EV adoption. Yes, I guess I would like to see some shared anxiety about the effects on adoption.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I would respectfully disagree. We can get that number to 100% by setting an unreasonable finishing time and a grace. Make it completely random and you get everyone on the charge. That is basically my point - when you only have a 5 minute grace and the supercharging completion can vary tens of minutes of original estimate, reasonable people can miss it quite unintentionally.

Of course, if you believe estimating supercharging finish by a 5 minute accuracy is something that anyone can reasonable and reliably do every time, your opinion differs. That's okay. But just so you get my point: I do not think it is, hence my different opinion.

I don't understand your post.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, unplug your car and move it when done supercharging certainly is the idea behind the 5 minute grace. I agree with that.

And I also would agree with the notion that there are many people in this world that probably would have to stand by the car (or rather, sit in it to see the screen) to reliably estimate when supercharging ends by a 5 minute margin. Watching an app and needing engineering understanding to know when it ends does not sound like a very massmarket approach to me.

Now comes my beef: I think such a thing would be harmful to EV adoption. Yes, I guess I would like to see some shared anxiety about the effects on adoption.

I would agree with standing by your car as to not exceed charging times. After all...SC'ing is a great benefit. Respect it.