Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • We just completed a significant update, but we still have some fixes and adjustments to make, so please bear with us for the time being. Cheers!

Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

AnxietyRanger

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
9,408
7,399
EU
However, as these pages and pages of posts show, there are folks who don't care about anyone but themselves. ... Don't be surprised when people act like people.

People are people, not machines.

Any stick and carrot policies are subject to debate as they may have unintended or unreasonable consequences with actual people.

For example, a machine could time its break to conform to an unpredictable Supercharging length by a 5 min grace better than most humans reasonably can, because a machine could keep watching that data all the time. A machine has no need to spend the break time in any other way.

With humans too strict policies may lead to unintended consequences such as charging to 100% more to buy time or buying/taking the ICE instead of EV if the unpredictable charge breaks become too stressful.

By humans here I talk of regular decent folk. Not early adopter tech heads or even abnormally selfish people. Just regular people.
 
Jan 10, 2017
37
19
Montreal
I think this is great to stop people hogging the spots. However, do you guys think this will solve the problem on long travel routes during vacations?

We also heard Private companies can buy and install Supercharger Stations. This is good for Tesla Taxi companies to stop them hogging all our Superchargers as this happens in Montreal from a Tesla taxi service here. But those private ones are capped, and still doesn't solve the long travel route problem, check this out:

"While the Supercharger owned and operated by Tesla can deliver up to 120 kW (with a capacity of 145 kW), the ones sold to private companies by the automaker are capped to 60 kW for some unclear reasons." - electric.co article

"And you think this will hold up once they start pumping millions of Model 3 and the competition starts pumping EV's with their own superchargers? On a 800 mile route where there is no traffic jam but only big queues for each gas station (12/18/24 pumpstations) on 3x a 100 mile stretch within the 800 mile, how are we going to solve this issue if everyone would want to convert to EV?
A 24 stall gas station can handle an ICE car every 5 minutes. 12x24 = 288 cars per hour. which is really really low compared to the road capacity (20k / hr). There are about 80 gas stations along the total route but at about 30 the wait time at each is 1 hour.
A 24 stall supercharger can handle 24 cars an hour. meaning you'd need a parking lot of 288 with all supercharger stalls to match the capacity. You'd need about 80 of those along that 800 mile route just to match current capacity if EV's manage to get to same range of ICE cars. And then the wait time is till 1 hour at about 30 of the 80 locations. So to make EV long distance travelling a better experience then the current ICE cars you'd need to upgrade 30 of those locations to about 600 places parking lot with all places equipped with a supercharger.
Don't think this is a peak hour issue, its a vacation traffic issue and this issue arises twice a year: in winter it takes about 6 weeks with over 22 hours a day this type of traffic and in summer duration is about 12 weeks. And this is just an example of a short route, there are about 20 routes from 800 - 2000 miles and 10 of these routes have this issue in this severity.
A parking lot with 600 * $60k a lot is a $36 million investment. 24hr * 600 customers * 20$ = $288k a day would make it profitable within a year". -schaep

Full Article: Tesla to deliver its largest privately-owned Supercharger station to a taxi fleet in Montreal
 

Garlan Garner

Banned
Mar 31, 2016
11,351
6,062
Chicagoland
I think this is great to stop people hogging the spots. However, do you guys think this will solve the problem on long travel routes during vacations?

We also heard Private companies can buy and install Supercharger Stations. This is good for Tesla Taxi companies to stop them hogging all our Superchargers as this happens in Montreal from a Tesla taxi service here. But those private ones are capped, and still doesn't solve the long travel route problem, check this out:

"While the Supercharger owned and operated by Tesla can deliver up to 120 kW (with a capacity of 145 kW), the ones sold to private companies by the automaker are capped to 60 kW for some unclear reasons." - electric.co article

"And you think this will hold up once they start pumping millions of Model 3 and the competition starts pumping EV's with their own superchargers? On a 800 mile route where there is no traffic jam but only big queues for each gas station (12/18/24 pumpstations) on 3x a 100 mile stretch within the 800 mile, how are we going to solve this issue if everyone would want to convert to EV?
A 24 stall gas station can handle an ICE car every 5 minutes. 12x24 = 288 cars per hour. which is really really low compared to the road capacity (20k / hr). There are about 80 gas stations along the total route but at about 30 the wait time at each is 1 hour.
A 24 stall supercharger can handle 24 cars an hour. meaning you'd need a parking lot of 288 with all supercharger stalls to match the capacity. You'd need about 80 of those along that 800 mile route just to match current capacity if EV's manage to get to same range of ICE cars. And then the wait time is till 1 hour at about 30 of the 80 locations. So to make EV long distance travelling a better experience then the current ICE cars you'd need to upgrade 30 of those locations to about 600 places parking lot with all places equipped with a supercharger.
Don't think this is a peak hour issue, its a vacation traffic issue and this issue arises twice a year: in winter it takes about 6 weeks with over 22 hours a day this type of traffic and in summer duration is about 12 weeks. And this is just an example of a short route, there are about 20 routes from 800 - 2000 miles and 10 of these routes have this issue in this severity.
A parking lot with 600 * $60k a lot is a $36 million investment. 24hr * 600 customers * 20$ = $288k a day would make it profitable within a year". -schaep

Full Article: Tesla to deliver its largest privately-owned Supercharger station to a taxi fleet in Montreal
I thought long distance supercharging was still free. Is it not?

This fee structure just gets rid of the local charging congestion.

Tesla Motors, Inc.'s Supercharger Network Is Still Mostly Free
 

busaman

Member
Dec 12, 2016
237
93
suffolk UK
100% agree with idle fees although i have never had that problem in the UK it wont be long before it does become an issue..
 
Last edited:

msnow

Active Member
Jul 14, 2015
4,951
2,236
SoCal
So what do you choose to believe?

Elon Musk says Tesla Model 3 will include ‘free long-distance charging’

You can see a video of the meeting with Q&A here. This answer starts about 15:30 into the video.
I trust the official published Tesla policy as posted. The article you referenced summarized as follows (note what is in bold):

"Because of this, the Model 3 will not qualify for lifetime free supercharging, however in answering this question Mr. Musk stated:

Model 3, from the beginning we said free charging is not included in the Model 3 – free unlimited charging is not included, so, free long distance is, but not free local. It becomes really unwieldy for people to use the gas station approach for electric cars, like, cars should really be charged where you charge your phone, but then you just need to solve the long distance problem which is what the supercharger stations will do.

We suspect this means that they will be on a similar program to the Model S, with a certain kWh allowance per year – only perhaps with a lower limit as the Model 3 is expected to be a more efficient vehicle. Tesla has responded that they have nothing further to announce beyond what Elon said on stage."
 

roblab

Active Member
Jul 15, 2008
3,361
2,418
Angwin (Napa Valley) CA
I think this is great to stop people hogging the spots. However, do you guys think this will solve the problem on long travel routes during vacations?

"And you think this will hold up once they start pumping millions of Model 3 and the competition starts pumping EV's with their own superchargers?
Don't think this is a peak hour issue, its a vacation traffic issue

Full Article: Tesla to deliver its largest privately-owned Supercharger station to a taxi fleet in Montreal

Kindly remember that maybe 90+% of all charging occurs at home. Your scenario is of gas cars who MUST charge away from home. Even when going on vacation, I use home outlets and motel outlets for several stops. Then, there are destination chargers. All these are places gas cars may not use.

Thankfully, independent fleet owners can get chargers for their fleet, but I would imagine that a lot of that charging could be at 40 - 80 amp.
But the current problem is mostly local owners trying to get charging for free by using superchargers instead of home outlets.
 

Az_Rael

Supporting Member
Jan 26, 2016
5,604
8,761
Palmdale, CA
I believe free LD will exist for the M3. The CEO said it will in the video.

Free long distance is not equal to unlimited free long distance. There was a key word missing. So, yes, the free 400kW per year (or some other amount) of "free long distance travel" will probably exist for the model 3.

It's like that t-Mobile "free data for life" plan. It's not free unlimited data, it's a set amount of free data for life.
 

Garlan Garner

Banned
Mar 31, 2016
11,351
6,062
Chicagoland
Kindly remember that maybe 90+% of all charging occurs at home. Your scenario is of gas cars who MUST charge away from home. Even when going on vacation, I use home outlets and motel outlets for several stops. Then, there are destination chargers. All these are places gas cars may not use.

Thankfully, independent fleet owners can get chargers for their fleet, but I would imagine that a lot of that charging could be at 40 - 80 amp.
But the current problem is mostly local owners trying to get charging for free by using superchargers instead of home outlets.
I agree 1000%.

Tesla is trying to remedy LOCAL Supercharging. Long Distance Supercharging is NOT an issue.

Why penalize EVERYONE for while trying to augment the behavior of a few?

Thanks ELON for not penalizing everyone.
 

Garlan Garner

Banned
Mar 31, 2016
11,351
6,062
Chicagoland
Things change. Do you want a list of the things the Model S was going to have?
Believe all you want, but Tesla is not going to have free long distance supercharging for the Model 3 if it no longer exists for new Model S and X (beyond 400 kWh/year)
I don't believe free long distance for the MS and MX are gone either - until the CEO says that it is.
 

msnow

Active Member
Jul 14, 2015
4,951
2,236
SoCal
I agree 1000%.

Tesla is trying to remedy LOCAL Supercharging. Long Distance Supercharging is NOT an issue.

Why penalize EVERYONE for while trying to augment the behavior of a few?

Thanks ELON for not penalizing everyone.
So you agree that what you will get for "free" is 400 kWh of Supercharging per year. Beyond that you will pay. I would add that's exactly what's posted on Tesla website that you disagreed with a few minutes ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: callmesam and KJD

Garlan Garner

Banned
Mar 31, 2016
11,351
6,062
Chicagoland
So you agree that what you will get for "free" is 400 kWh of Supercharging per year. Beyond that you will pay. I would add that's exactly what's posted on Tesla website that you disagreed with a few minutes ago.
Let me be clear.

Whatever the CEO said is what I believe.

Free LD supercharging is what he said....therefore that's what I believe. That's what he told his investors.

Why is me believing the CEO a problem for everyone?


If you look at the intent of what Elon is trying to do.....his statement makes perfect sense. He's trying to alleviate SC congestion caused by local SC'ing. He built the SC network for LD travel. That's why just about all of them are located on highways. Sustainable Transport.
 
Last edited:

msnow

Active Member
Jul 14, 2015
4,951
2,236
SoCal
Let me be clear.

Whatever the CEO said is what I believe.

Free LD supercharging is what he said....therefore that's what I believe. That's what he told his investors.

Why is me believing the CEO a problem for everyone?


If you look at the intent of what Elon is trying to do.....his statement makes perfect sense. He's trying to alleviate SC congestion caused by local SC'ing. He built the SC network for LD travel. That's why just about all of them are located on highways. Sustainable Transport.
Got it. In that case you will be disappointed. Elon says a lot of things, some of it aspirational, some vague and some in conflict with written stated policy (as is the case here).
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top