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Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

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I pay less than $0.14/Kwh for electricity and Tesla is going to charge over 25% more than a *residential* rate? ($0.18)

Not only that, Tesla will charge you $0.40/min if you stay beyond a 5 minute grace of the charge ending. And you will on occasion, unless you are very careful.

Owning an EV will certainly become interesting if charging overall becomes that precise an event, that you have to be back within 5 minutes of unpredictable charge completion.

I just did some math. The 5 min grace is the equivalent of a pump station requiring you to leave in 20 seconds after filling your tank - or they start charging you additional costs.

20 seconds is doable when you are next to your car anyway, but even then it is hard and definitely not always required... 5 minutes when the filling time is unpredictable and long like in Supercharging is even harder.

I'm still of the opinion that the reasonable grace for returning to a charger will - at least until charge times drop to fuel tank times - gravitate towards more than 5 minutes in people's minds. Some staying after charge completion is normal given the nature of the event.

Who knows, I may be wrong, but this is how it feels to me. The solution would be to build up the charging network capacity to account for some reasonable overstay (over 5 min) as a normal part of the routine. Maybe 30-60 minutes. Maybe there will be some price, but not a punitive price system necessarily like with Tesla. (I'm not talking of Tesla here. Just EV charging in general.)
 
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This example is a microcosm of the actual issue.

Look, I'm not saying the guy in this example is a saint - I've agreed some idle charges to him are warranted - but let's not kid outselves. At $0.40/min, it does not take long to get to $800 if you Supercharge regularly.

The idle charges started a little over a month ago. Charging every day that $800 would be around 65 idle minutes a day (of course at work one would not charge on the weekend probably). Not parking there for days on end, just coming an hour late to the car daily. A little more if we exclude weekends.

To extrapolate from this example a normal user over a years time (the time between expected service center visits), accumulating $800 over a year is hardly difficult with this setup, where you have to keep watching some app (without a reliable estimate) to know when to return to your car. Some people made it sound as if they guy parked there in the morning and came back in the evening - this is not the case.

Do you think people will love the Tesla experience when $800 extra is slapped on them at annual visits? Get that warm fuzzy feeling of EV service center visits being cheaper than with an ICE? That fee will be associated with the Tesla experience. And at that stage, so much after the fact, there isn't much help for the actual issue (SpC congestion) there either...

I fear implemented this way the system will end up being counter-productive. Some idle charges are fine. Just make a more predictable and followable system that the average person can react correctly to and avoid the charges with reasonable effort.

Wow, you feel entitled to supercharging AND convenience of using them in way that's most comfortable for you, eh?

There are different points of view on this, but this is one that makes sense to me:
If you were parking and blocking a gas station stall an hour every day, for a month, you would be elated to get away with only $800 penalty. What business would let you reck their business like that? Fifth day they'd start calling tow service, and $250 is min for a single towing charge, including minimum 4 hrs layover etc, etc, here in Toronto

You may not agree with this perspective, but I do, and I feel Tesla is at their rights to enforce it. They provide convenience of supercharging, they haven't committed to building redundant capacity to allow you to leasurily finish your dinner. I understand supercharging takes longer than filling the tank, but it doesn't change the fact that reasonable view is, onus is on user to make sure they comply.

History of this not being the case is what shapes your position, and though it was never intentioned, it makes sense it was that way with early adopters. It doesn't mean your position will prevail going forward, as system matures.

I'll bet you 98% of users will think in a way I described in 3 years. And this transition will be helped with faster charging, it will be closer to gas-station model.
 
I pay less than $0.14/Kwh for electricity and Tesla is going to charge over 25% more than a *residential* rate? ($0.18)

Yes, and I suspect they're giving us a break. Musk has stated that Supercharging won't be a profit center, but Tesla still has to install and maintain Superchargers, and manage the program. That costs money. Vehicles without FUSC also get that 400 kWh annual credit.

To get a better sense of this, try comparing Tesla's rates to other commercial fast-charging rates. We could look at evgo for example. Hmm, but evgo isn't in NH yet? What alternative fast DC charging do you have in NH? Try modeling how much any alternatives would cost you in a typical year, vs what you'd pay for any use over Tesla's 400 kWh annual credit.

I'll share my numbers for Tesla and evgo in CA (SF area). Evgo has two plans with DC fast charging. I could pay a $5 setup fee and then $5 per session plus 20 cents/minute. Or sign up for a one year contract at $15/month plus 10 cents/minute (I'm rounding some numbers for simplicity). I'd have to provide my own chademo adapter at $450. I understand evgo chademo typically delivers 40-kW. My residential off-peak rate of 11-12 cents/kWh, and I figure evgo can never beat that for my daily driving habits. Neither does Tesla at 20 cents/kWh in California. So I'll keep charging at home except for long distance travel. For that, when I figure in evgo's choice of per-session or monthly charges on top of the kWh rate, Tesla looks better and better.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't need fast DC charging every month: typically only about 280 kWh annually, in six sessions, but I could probably squeeze that down to four sessions. Even without considering the chademo adapter, evgo's flex plan would cost me about $100-110 annually. The annual plan would be worse at about $210, most of it in monthly fees not kWh. Add another $90 annually if I can expect the chademo adapter to last five years. Meanwhile Tesla's annual 400 kWh credit would cover my long-distance driving without any charges at all. There are also time and flexibility benefits: I can expect to charge faster, and I don't have to pay an extra charge per session.

Overall evgo starts out expensive, then gets cheaper the more you use it. Tesla starts out free, then jumps to a fixed price. I haven't modeled it, but evgo might work out cheaper for really heavy users, for example airport limo drivers. That could be exactly how Tesla wants it, too.
 
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Wow, you feel entitled to supercharging AND convenience of using them in way that's most comfortable for you, eh?

First of all, this is NOT about me. I am observing the world and expressing opinion on what I feel is reasonable and what works. I very, very rarely Supercharge at all.

There are different points of view on this, but this is one that makes sense to me:
If you were parking and blocking a gas station stall an hour every day, for a month, you would be elated to get away with only $800 penalty. What business would let you reck their business like that? Fifth day they'd start calling tow service, and $250 is min for a single towing charge, including minimum 4 hrs layover etc, etc, here in Toronto

The thing is: it is absolutely common sense to consider the relative length of events in judging how people should be expected to behave in relation to them.

Let's say filling up a gasoline tank takes 3 minutes, with a precision of +/-1 minute. So 2-4 minutes. Supercharging takes, maybe an average of 60 minutes, but with a precision of +/- 30 minutes. Given that, a 60 minute overstay at a Supercharger would be roughly the equivalent of an overstay of 3-4 minutes at the gasoline tank.

Depending on location, people often go inside to pay for the gasoline before moving the car. That is actually expected at times, too, so it doesn't look like you are driving away. In any case, a grace of several minutes certainly is normal when filling a gasoline tank. Perhaps it could be said the 5 minute grace would be reasonable for filling up the tank. By then you need to be gone, fair enough. And because it all reasonable happens while you are standing by the car, you can even be expected to move quicker than that if there is a queue. OK.

Now, when the ballpark moves to 30-90 minutes of charging, with much less precision to begin with, a much longer grace period is simply a reasonable thing when dealing with an imprecise charging process and humans.

The nature of the EV charging process is completely different from the nature of gasoline fill-up at the moment. When it gets down to 3-5 minutes of charge to 90-100%, then this will of course change, but that is not what I am commenting on.

You may not agree with this perspective, but I do, and I feel Tesla is at their rights to enforce it. They provide convenience of supercharging, they haven't committed to building redundant capacity to allow you to leasurily finish your dinner. I understand supercharging takes longer than filling the tank, but it doesn't change the fact that reasonable view is, onus is on user to make sure they comply.

Perhaps. But the user also has an option to simply drive an ICE if EV adoption becomes too bothersome. As it stands I feel Tesla's idle charge policy can be harmful to adoption. (I am not against idle charges, just the very tight grace and annual SC charging period.)

History of this not being the case is what shapes your position, and though it was never intentioned, it makes sense it was that way with early adopters. It doesn't mean your position will prevail going forward, as system matures.

I'll bet you 98% of users will think in a way I described in 3 years. And this transition will be helped with faster charging, it will be closer to gas-station model.

If and when the charging transitions to the gas-station speeds, then this is of course a completely different scenario. I am obviously talking about slow charging, which Supercharger still is relatively speaking.

I expect the average person to consider slow charging (current Supercharger types included) reasonably including some reasonable stay after charge, that is more than 5 minutes. Especially as long as the length of the charge is unpredictable. That reasonable overstay time may incur some cost of course (similar to being at the charger in the first place), but not a punitive cost that is above charging cost (Tesla roughly doubles the cost for idle).

Now, Tesla may of course attempt to steer the market in a different direction. So I am merely talking of what I think the average person will find reasonable or not. I can be wrong of course. But I am just assessing the psychology of it as I see it.

I'm thinking people have not really thought it through when very ordinary people (not emotionally invested in EVs), who don't likely use any car mobile apps or the like, start getting their annual service invoices with a year's worth of idle charges as a nice little surprise... What do they think of Tesla then? And what will they tell their friends - who may be thinking of buying an EV - about EVs?
 
Emphasis added (obviously)
They know full well how the Supercharger was sold to the average buyer. Tesla reaped major adoption benefits from the unlimited Supercharging...

Do you think people will love the Tesla experience when $800 extra is slapped on them at annual visits? ...Just make a more predictable and followable system that the average person can react correctly to and avoid the charges with reasonable effort.

I expect the average person to consider slow charging (current Supercharger types included) reasonably including some reasonable stay after charge, that is more than 5 minutes. ...I am merely talking of what I think the average person will find reasonable or not...
I think we get your position here. You made it clear. You think that the length of charge is not entirely predictable, and the average driver won't get it, won't like it and won't be willing to use the app, yada, yada, yada.

This all makes sense from a limited viewpoint with blinders on. Remember though, it is you who is talking about the average person here. The average person does not supercharge regularly. If they get stuck with a fee, it will not be a big one. If they are late getting back from their meal, let them pay the fee. The average person would be okay with that. I would have no issue with that if I am put in that position. If they are a local who needs to charge fairly often, they will find other options, or they will get the culture immediately, and will stay with their car. That is the absolute least that they should do. I would be cool with zero grace for a local who is charging, but that is not feasible to implement. Use it. Don't abuse it. On top of that, new owners get charged after limited use. Frequent users will quickly get in tune with etiquette for this reason only.

Finally, I highly doubt the average person would tell people not to buy a Tesla because they got hit with an idle fee. For the very few of them who do, we shouldn't care. To them, I say, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." It will not make a significant dent in Tesla's overall sales.
 
I think we get your position here. You made it clear. You think that the length of charge is not entirely predictable, and the average driver won't get it, won't like it and won't be willing to use the app

Yep. But you forgot an important one: The annual charging at the service center makes it even less predictable and harder to get and unpleasant for that average driver.

The average person does not supercharge regularly. If they get stuck with a fee, it will not be a big one. If they are late getting back from their meal, let them pay the fee. The average person would be okay with that. I would have no issue with that if I am put in that position.

You are not an average person when it comes to EVs, that much is obvious. I am not sure any of us are. But even if what you say is true (I am not sure it is, but I'll humour you) the problem remains: the average person will get that fee possibly a year later at their annual service visit, probably as a surprise, probably accumulated many times over - resulting in a significant one-time penalty fee.

So even if they do not Supercharge regularly, the annual charging process means that all those irregular Supercharger visits get grouped into one lump sum making it potentially much more significant an event.

Finally, I highly doubt the average person would tell people not to buy a Tesla because they got hit with an idle fee.

No, they probably would imply EVs are a hassle, service costs a ton (or two), better stay with gasoline.
 
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I'm thinking people have not really thought it through when very ordinary people (not emotionally invested in EVs), who don't likely use any car mobile apps or the like, start getting their annual service invoices with a year's worth of idle charges as a nice little surprise... What do they think of Tesla then? And what will they tell their friends - who may be thinking of buying an EV - about EVs?

I think that what the OP has (correctly) observed is that the idle charges make it pretty much impossible for Tesla drivers to supercharge near their workplaces while they work. There aren't many jobs that are so flexible that a worker can know reliably that they will be able to leave their desks and move their cars within 5 minutes of getting a notice from the App. Even white collar types with flexible days often get caught up in phone calls, or unexpected meets, or just tied up in doin something. And employers aren't likely to appreciate employees who prioritize moving their cars over the needs of their jobs.

It's fair to say that this isn't a problem, since the supercharger network was never meant to be used in this manner, and since most superchargers aren't located within a quick walk from where Tesla owners work. I tend to agree with that sentiment-- I don't think this is what the network was designed for. That said, if at-work supercharging is a legitimate use of the network, the OP wasn't being inconsiderate in the way he was using the superchargers. The idle charges effectively eliminate the option of using superchargers as a daily at-work charging option.
 
Yep. But you forgot an important one: The annual charging at the service center makes it even less predictable and harder to get and unpleasant for that average driver.
You are correct, I did forget about that. This problem is solved once they have credit cards on file, which I bet they do going forward with their new policy that started last week. Again, I like my solution above (I am biased towards myself) of having a pop-op on the screen to give real time feedback and charges.


No, they probably would imply EVs are a hassle, service costs a ton (or two), better stay with gasoline.
The truth is, neither of us knows this. It would have to be studied. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. By the way, I'm right and you're wrong. ;)
 
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First of all, this is NOT about me. I am observing the world and expressing opinion on what I feel is reasonable and what works. I very, very rarely Supercharge at all.
So let's observe this from a bloke such as yourself. I see Supercharging like a parking meter or in your case disc parking with the added incentive of a free fill up. In this scenario you get approximately an hour of free parking. You stay pass that time and you owe fees.

I don't understand your obsession with the 5 minute idle especially as you say you rarely Supercharge. If people stay past a few minutes every so often it isn't going to kill them. A person that leaves their car plugged in daily at a Supercharger after charging completes deserves all the fees they have incurred. I'd like to see how you feel when the Model 3 is in full production, Superchargers are full, there is a line 5 cars deep and you really need a charge with 1% SOC left in the dead of winter but you can't use the heater or seat warmers.
 
The thing is: it is absolutely common sense to consider the relative length of events in judging how people should be expected to behave in relation to them.

Let's say filling up a gasoline tank takes 3 minutes, with a precision of +/-1 minute. So 2-4 minutes. Supercharging takes, maybe an average of 60 minutes, but with a precision of +/- 30 minutes. Given that, a 60 minute overstay at a Supercharger would be roughly the equivalent of an overstay of 3-4 minutes at the gasoline tank.

Your logic is flawed ... a 60 minute overstay at a Supercharger would be roughly the equivalent of parking at a busy gas station :cool:
 
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Your logic is flawed ... a 60 minute overstay at a Supercharger would be roughly the equivalent of parking at a busy gas station :cool:

If you don't agree with the concept that reasonable expectations on people's timeliness are dependent on the length and precision of an event, then I can see you not agreeing or understanding my point.

But I disagree. At a short event like gasoline fill-up the expectation to return to/move the car immediately makes sense. I outlined how payment indoors is often allowed, so a couple of minutes overstay is normal even there. People are not machines, what is reasonably expected of them depends on the nature of the circumstance.

When the event is 10-20 times longer and completion precision equivalently inaccurate (stall sharing etc. can dramatically change charge time), it is perfectly reasonable from a humane point of view to allow for an equally longer grace period.

Mind you, I would feel 30 minutes grace much better than 5. Even 15 minutes of grace, while tight, would still be more humane than 5 minutes.
 
So let's observe this from a bloke such as yourself. I see Supercharging like a parking meter or in your case disc parking with the added incentive of a free fill up. In this scenario you get approximately an hour of free parking. You stay pass that time and you owe fees.

I don't understand your obsession with the 5 minute idle especially as you say you rarely Supercharge. If people stay past a few minutes every so often it isn't going to kill them. A person that leaves their car plugged in daily at a Supercharger after charging completes deserves all the fees they have incurred. I'd like to see how you feel when the Model 3 is in full production, Superchargers are full, there is a line 5 cars deep and you really need a charge with 1% SOC left in the dead of winter but you can't use the heater or seat warmers.

If the Supercharger line is 5 deep, it is not very likely a problem of people not moving cars, but a capacity issue in the first place. Let's be honest: this is a capacity issue first (in the limited areas where it is an issue) that Tesla is attempting to be seen doing something about...

That said, I am not against incentivising people to move their cars. I am disagreeing on the current way it is done and what a reasonable stay at a charger should be seen as part of the charging process. As long as it is tens of times slower than a gasoline fill-up, and equally imprecise in completion, I feel some relative stay at the charger after completion is normal.

It can have a predictable price, mind you. Say equivalent to the charge in the first place. But punitive charges are IMO not the way to go after 5 minutes. After 30, 45 or 60 minutes, perhaps. Overnight parking, sure... but 5 minutes is very, very short for an unpredictably long event you can not well plan for but must watch an app to know when to return.

It is not at all the same as parking meters. There you know exactly how many minutes you have until you must return. With Supercharging idle fees you have no way to know.

As said, I would be fine with 0 minutes grace if the car gave an exact return time upon leaving it at a charger.
 
To me it is as simple as this; If you waste peoples time unnecessarily after completing your charge you should pay.

Even as a complete Tesla newbie I know approx the minimum amount of time it will take to get to the desired charge level. If you plan to be back at that time you will never pay for any idle fees. If needed, set an alarm yourself 5 minutes before the minimum charge time and check the app what the status is then. If that is too hard, then stay with the car.

With even a basic respect for other people's time we wouldn't need idle fees. But as people have proven, we do need them.
 
To me it is as simple as this; If you waste peoples time unnecessarily after completing your charge you should pay.
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With even a basic respect for other people's time we wouldn't need idle fees. But as people have proven, we do need them.

I understand a lot of people have that view here.

Personally, I am seeking a solution that works for all involved - not just the guy in the queue, and not just the guy in the charger, and not just the EV enthuasiast willing to hassle, but also the person sceptical about moving away from the comfort of their ICE...

Tesla settled on a 5 minute grace. So that is already allowed overtime. Tesla settled on an annual charge cycle, so there is already some artificial charge cycle in place. These are details perfectly well open to debate IMO, they are not the only option and the likelihood that they would simply be the most optimal way of handling this seems small IMO. There should be a better compromise is all I'm saying.

Even as a complete Tesla newbie I know approx the minimum amount of time it will take to get to the desired charge level. If you plan to be back at that time you will never pay for any idle fees. If needed, set an alarm yourself 5 minutes before the minimum charge time and check the app what the status is then. If that is too hard, then stay with the car.

I am not sure this is true. If you need to charge just from 50% to 60% or something, then perhaps, but charging to full means that the charge time can vary greatly depending on stall sharing events for example. It really is quite imprecise.

If the car would give a guaranteed time you have to return by, and no idle charge is ever charged, I would be fine with a 0 minute grace on that. But as it stands, it gives no such time. Even very knowledgeable Tesla owners have been surprised by how fast or slow some chargers suddently become during a charge. The app notifications are notoriously unreliable so basically you really have to watch the app or sit in the car constantly to make sure.

I get it, some people here worry about the guy in the queue first. I am not unsympathetic to that either. Some idle charges, some incentives to move cars promptly is perfectly fine. I disagree with this particular implementation as it is not predictable or easy to follow for an average person - and the annual charges are a serious turn off when they let them accumulate over months and then hit the customer with the sum at a supposendly "cheaper than ICE" maintenance visit.

I sense this will, if it remains as it is, hamper EV adoption - or at least diminish the Supercharger's ability to increase EV adoption. I fear that the average person we want to win over to EVs from ICE will not stand for this. Many will not want to sit in the car or watch an app during charging, they may have already found the forced lunch break inconvenient before this compared to their ICE... And I'm not sure this even helps the congestion much as it stands. Tesla needs a better system.
 
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.. but also the person sceptical about moving away from the comfort of their ICE...

I think those sceptics will be pretty enraged if they have to wait 30-60 minutes before they cant start to charge because someone wanted to finish their meal or whatever.

Having a 30-60 minute grace time will kill supercharging for everyone once masses of Model 3's hit the road. Sure, you can argue that it's a capacity issue, but if people are educated that a Supercharging spot is really free convenient parking it will be a perpetual capacity issue. It just won't work to create a broken system to try to accommodate the biggest sceptics. New (and old!) EV drivers needs to be educated on what is acceptable charging behaviour.

With that said, sure, there are certainly improvements Tesla can make. A starting point would be to link a credit card in MyTesla and charge after each session with detailed information on the screen, as well as proper information about Supercharging when you take delivery of your Tesla.
 
I think those sceptics will be pretty enraged if they have to wait 30-60 minutes before they cant start to charge because someone wanted to finish their meal or whatever.

It isn't wanting to allow people to finish their meals for me at all. I am advocating for a system where a reasonably diligent average person would optimally never get idle charges by accident, while experiencing a resonable-feeling system that won't hamper their EV adoption interest. That is the optimal goal, but I would also be glad of any further steps towards that.

It is to give predictability and an understandable system for the average person, which I feel now lacks. I have no problem demanding car moving once charging finishes. I am arguing for a more humane system to do so. Like I said I would support 0 minute grace (zero minutes!) if the car could give upon charge start a guaranteed move-the-car time before which any idle charges will definitely not accrue. That would be a system an average person can understand, return at a pre-determined time. That is similar to the parking meter. People understand parking meters and can be expected to understand them.

One issue with engineering designed solutions is that they are often quite inhumane. From an engineerin perspective, the concept of people moving their car immediately once the charge is finished (the five minute is basically jus to give you time to notice the notification and disconnect the cable) is certainly inviting. But it hardly takes into consideration the human who is operating the process. Machines can react to changing circumstances immediately, for humans that is a more difficult task.

Let's look at what we have here: A long, imprecise charging event towards which the only visibility you have is a mobile app and the screen inside the car. There are people without the app, and the notifications of the app are notoriously unreliable anyway. There is the taper and stall sharing and different conditions of Supercharges making the length of the Supercharging event variable, even during a charge. And you have to move within 5 minutes of completion or face penalty charges (which I would assume most people dislike beyond their monetary value).

1) You can not plan with your watch, as the event length can vary a lot.

2) You can not rely on app notifications, because they are not reliable (and not everyone uses apps).

3) You can not use your expertise to estimate the length of charging (which would be beyond the average person anyway), because stall sharing can speed up and slow down your charge beyond your control. Some stalls also have varying speeds for other reasons like technical condition.

4) Sometimes Supercharging simply stops before reaching the percentage you want. It just completes on its own abruptly.

= The only options that are reliable are sitting in the car watching the screen or constantly looking at/updating the app and staying close enough to be 5 minutes away at all times. Or taking penalty charges.

Having a 30-60 minute grace time will kill supercharging for everyone once masses of Model 3's hit the road. Sure, you can argue that it's a capacity issue, but if people are educated that a Supercharging spot is really free convenient parking it will be a perpetual capacity issue. It just won't work to create a broken system to try to accommodate the biggest sceptics. New (and old!) EV drivers needs to be educated on what is acceptable charging behaviour.

There are two things at play here IMO:

- Charging an EV is an inconvenience, no doubt about it. It hampers adoption. Allowing people to use that break in a meaninful manner helps with adoption. If we allow people to plan their return to the charger better, they can spend the break in a more meaningful way, resulting in higher satisfaction. If we rely on education and a system that is inhumanely demanding, more people will just stick with ICE.

- My thinking is not just about Supercharging either, but all EV charging. It simply is such a different type of event currently, that I do not think using similar metrics as at a gas station is the reasonable way forward. When the charge is long and unpredictable, allowing a larger time window for moving the car after finishing is simply common sense IMO. It is normal, it is reasonable, it should be designed for. This reasonable period can have some price, but not a punitive price.

I'm not saying I know what the reasonable stay ends up being for an EV charging event upon completion for people on average. But I am saying I do not think it is 5 minutes or less.

When you take your car to a quick automated car wash, it is understood that you do not park there but move out after it is done. It is so quick you can be expected to do so. But when you take it to a longer, human-operated car wash, they do not demand that you pick it up within 5 minutes of them getting it done, since you can not know when they are done. They will call or SMS you that it is done and understand it will take a while for you to return. That is normal. Same goes for any lenghty, unpredictable events...

Now, please understand that I am not ignoring the people queueing for the charger. I am seeking a compromise that works for all, while optimizing EV adoption barrier removal.

With that said, sure, there are certainly improvements Tesla can make. A starting point would be to link a credit card in MyTesla and charge after each session with detailed information on the screen, as well as proper information about Supercharging when you take delivery of your Tesla.

It is easy agree with this. This should happen in any case.

I am not seeking perfection either. If Tesla had implemented this as 1) pay as you go credit card system 2) with a 15 minute grace from the start, and 3) with an SMS warning system, I would probably have much less to say about this.

15 minutes hardly solves everything, but at least it would be more humane than 5 minutes (and still short enough to encourage prompt return to car), SMS would reach most people and be more reliable than an app (app would still be an option too of course), and pay as you go would remove most nasty surprises (no accumulating of year's worth of charges). It would be infinitely better than what we have now IMO.
 
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What it comes down to, I guess, is that I think 5 minutes is quite humane and a sensible grace period. Any more and the downsides outweighs the upsides IMO. I think even 15 minutes would be horribly inconsiderate to other people waiting in line. And I don't follow your logic in that you should be allowed a larger time window after finishing it since charging takes longer - since Superchargers are an extremely scarce resource compared to the number of gas stations available, it is even more important that you move your car pronto after charging completes.

I think the following scenario is perfectly manageable for everyone, and it just requires a watch:

Arrive at the supercharger & plug in. Based on your SoC and your target you will know that with full charger speed you will be done in about x minutes. If you share a charger, feel free to fudge x a little based on your experience. Be back at the car within x minutes. If charging has abruptly ended, call Tesla and get them to waive the charge. If something extraordinarily happens that delays your return, call Tesla and get them to waive the charge.
 
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What it comes down to, I guess, is that I think 5 minutes is quite humane and a sensible grace period. Any more and the downsides outweighs the upsides IMO. I think even 15 minutes would be horribly inconsiderate to other people waiting in line. And I don't follow your logic in that you should be allowed a larger time window after finishing it since charging takes longer - since Superchargers are an extremely scarce resource compared to the number of gas stations available, it is even more important than you move your car pronto after charging completes.

My point is not that I would like people to overstay for 15 minutes, or 30, or 60. My point is that because the end of chrage is imprecise, giving people a more reasonable window to return would be beneficial and fair. I am all for encouraing people to return at 0 minutes with education etc. while not punishing them from a reasonable return time given the imprecise nature of the event.

I guess what this comes down to is you think the convenience and cost of the charging person is less important than that of a person waiting in line, so you are willing to demand that much more from the charging person. I think that is probably the root of our disagreement and it is perfectly fine to agree to disagree, of course.

I would add, though, that my compromise suggestion too is to the befit of the person in the queue, because when they do get their spot, they have a more reasonable experience. It is not like these people on the queue and in the stalls are two separate groups of people... they are the same Tesla owners at different point of time.

I am also not convinced the people overstaying 5-15 minutes at Superchargers would be a major congestion cause. The main issue is that charging an EV takes a long time. Additional capacity is needed...

I think the following scenario is perfectly manageable for everyone, and it just requires a watch:

Arrive at the supercharger & plug in. Based on your SoC and your target you will know that with full charger speed you will be done in about x minutes. If you share a charger, feel free to fudge x a little based on your experience. Be back at the car within x minutes. If charging has abruptly ended, call Tesla and get them to waive the charge. If something extraordinarily happens that delays your return, call Tesla and get them to waive the charge.

Sure, one can do this - but as you admit, one can not avoid the idle charges with any sort of confidence. And asking Tesla to waive the charge all the time is hardly optimal. I do not believe the average person is very pleased to go through all this hassle to Supercharge their car. I don't think they will find it reasonable and many will just say, no way, this is too difficult, ICE for me please. Maybe I am wrong, but that is they way I fear it will be.

Unlimited, hassle free Supercharging has been a great obstacle remover for EV adoption. Making it more difficult to operate will have some negative consequences as well. We shall see what kind and do they prompt Tesla into making some changes or not.
 
I guess what this comes down to is you think the convenience and cost of the charging person is less important than that of a person waiting in line, so you are willing to demand that much more from the charging person. I think that is probably the root of our disagreement and it is perfectly fine to agree to disagree, of course.

No, I think that it simple enough to avoid causing inconvenience & incurring own fees that it is not necessary to have a longer grace period. I am perfectly happy to disagree on what the length of the grace period should be.

Sure, one can do this - but as you admit, one can not avoid the idle charges with any sort of confidence. And asking Tesla to waive the charge all the time is hardly optimal. I do not believe the average person is very pleased to go through all this hassle to Supercharge their car.

If someone needs to call Tesla all the time to waive charges then they are doing it wrong. I feel pretty confident that I will be able to avoid idle charges, but it will be interesting to see if that is hubris on my part or not.
 
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