Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[Galve2000]

If I had guessed wrong and ended up paying an hour of idle fees, I'd take my lumps and pay them without complaint.

I agree with this. it's a few bucks at most at a few occasions. All the

IMO 5 minutes is not reasonable for the latter scenario. It should be at least 15 minutes if everything remains as is, 30 minutes would be better IMO.

I disagree with you here, at least in part. 30 minutes is an exorbitant amount of time when there are 2 rows of 8 cars deep waiting on a SCer. It happens in CA a lot. I note you are in the EU. may it never happen to you. That said, I do agree that 5 minutes grace is "too short" given the uncertainties of when the charge will actually complete. I do wish the grace period was 10 minutes. u cannot make everyone happy and people would still grumble that it is not enough time. but it is something.

It gives me some extra cushion to drive faster, deal with headwinds, or just charge less at my next stop. Idle charges have nothing to do with this.

bmah.. actually this is where you lose me. As much as I get what you are saying.. I like to drive my Model S like I stole it. It is not right for me to expect that the rest of the Tesla community will subsidize my shitty driving habits bc I don't want to be a more careful driver and simply gorge myself at a supercharger spot while others wait. I place headwinds and rain and other unforeseen circumstances in the same category. if you are outside the average use case, you should be expected to contribute something to "the pot" that will hopefully make its way into a better Tesla driving experience for the entire community.

However, I do think it is wrong to blame or charge people who do not use that workaround and are simply a little late..

I think an improvement would be that all fees start at 5 minutes from completion; the grace would be 5 free minutes, then when grace ends, you'd accrue fees from minute 5 onward (starting at $0).

Frankly, if Tesla didn't foresee the 100% slider "work around" for this, then that is bad on them. So people now can self select a longer grace period themselves (by adjusting the slider) or Tesla can adjust the grace period if they get too many complaints.

I think fees should accrue for anyone charging over 95% regardless of whether it is necessary or not. This would stop the gaming of the idle time system using the slider for people to charge to electrons they don't need. if you need to take up up a supercharger stall for an extra 20 minutes to get from 95 to 100% bc u don't want to find a destination charger or another way to charge for your convenience, you should pay the extra $8 and be done with it. If you need the extra 10 miles to make it to the next supercharger or to you destination/destination charger same thing. it is not right for you to get a free 10-20 minutes of someone else's time b/c of your lifestyle choices. (move to a different residence/summer home, pick another hotel, go on vacation somewhere else.) Don't want to bother changing yr life choices? Put a few $$ in the pot -- or get a different car.

Apples and oranges. Removing the last car of a train is not possible. However, changing the grace is actually very much possible.

you explain in that very thread that actually it is never possible to "remove the last car." when you change the grace period, you are effectively designating another car as the last car. I understand what you are saying that if you can get the theoretical 80 people to be on time its better that having only 50% be on time. but as you said further upthread many times, it is all well and good until you find yourself to be one of the 20 people who will always be late and always be penalized.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Overall a fair post, @Galve2000. Thank you for taking the time, appreciate it.

I disagree with you here, at least in part. 30 minutes is an exorbitant amount of time when there are 2 rows of 8 cars deep waiting on a SCer. It happens in CA a lot. I note you are in the EU. may it never happen to you. That said, I do agree that 5 minutes grace is "too short" given the uncertainties of when the charge will actually complete. I do wish the grace period was 10 minutes. u cannot make everyone happy and people would still grumble that it is not enough time. but it is something.

I agree 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes grace would be an improvement.

As for long queues at Superchargers, I fear they are not helped by this 5 minute policy - the real issue is undercapacity with the occasional car staying for hours on end - or ICE parkers. None of these really need a 5 minute grace for plugged-in Teslas, nor are they helped by it. The added number of people charging to 100% will also offset any urgency the 5 minute might generate...

As for location, yes one issue with this policy (which though the under 50% use rule at least helps a bit) is that the whole world suffers from idle chagers, while only very rarely does most of it suffer from Supercharger congestion at all... Frankly, myself getting idle charges in the next year or possibly two would probably mean a situation where an SpC had 50% occupancy... I would in reality be hurting nobody...

But mostly I am trying to discuss this without looking at my (or your) subjective experience, but just what is overall reasonable, what is fair. That is not really dependent on the length of the queue IMO, what is a reasonable accuracy to aim for, to ask of people, is reasonable no matter queues or lack thereof...

I understand the definition of "reasonable" is debatable in this (and most) cases. But IMO 5 minutes of grace is on the extreme end of the scale no matter how one slices and dices it... and it is hard to see it helping much the congestion question. It will, however, guarantee Tesla some income. And I'm beginning to think that may be the idea.

By the way, I'm not saying people should not be considerate of others especially when there are queues. I think they should. I think sitting in the car waiting and leaving as soon as possible should be the etiquette in such a case. Discussing etiquette is all good. But punishments are a different thing, really...

you explain in that very thread that actually it is never possible to "remove the last car." when you change the grace period, you are effectively designating another car as the last car. I understand what you are saying that if you can get the theoretical 80 people to be on time its better that having only 50% be on time. but as you said further upthread many times, it is all well and good until you find yourself to be one of the 20 people who will always be late and always be penalized.

I guess this IMO would come down to debating a compromise on what is "average, reasonable" use. Define a grace that would allow the average, reasonable user to succeed without penalties - the "20%" in that scenario would thus be unreasonable users and penalties would be warranted for them. I don't care if unreasonable users get penalties, in fact I think it is reasonable that they do.

I fully understand discussing what is reasonable is a judgement call. Perhaps over time society will find that golden mean on EV charging etiquette. I'm not sure there really exists any real concensus on that at this time...

But IMO some number of time staying over an EV charge at the spot is a normal part of charging process and not abuse or parking. It is relative to the length and nature of the event. Similar to how a cruise ship gives us longer to disembark than a local commuter train does, EV charging (as it currently stands, length-wise etc.) should allow us more "idle" time than a gasoline stop...

 

[Ulmo]

I think fees should accrue for anyone charging over 95% regardless of whether it is necessary or not. This would stop the gaming of the idle time system using the slider for people to charge to electrons they don't need. if you need to take up up a supercharger stall for an extra 20 minutes to get from 95 to 100%

False in my experience; I had a software limited 60, with a 75 pack inside. 95% to 100% is a few minutes, plus or minus ten minutes depending on temperature and sharing.

Wow, I had no idea about how slow the charging is at the top of the range for most Teslas. That's a huge impact: the undue impact on 60 owners is overly wrought; they already had to squeeze to afford the car, and they're being gouged because of totally inaccurate time estimates by the car for when the charge ends, wildly so. Anybody else just gets to skate right past all of the idle fee charges because they can eat into their upper-end buffer that the 60 doesn't have (except permanently, without ability to charge into), and that takes forever (20 minutes as you stated), practically guaranteeing you'll never be charged idle fees (who needs more than ten minutes to finish walking from the store or finishing in the bathroom?).

I had a disproportionate impact from the idle fees.

But, put into context of how often SuperChargers are used, how far we are going and how often we go that far, it may all wash out as still not that much of a big deal, provided they can fix the actual numbers.

I think there should be two tiers of idle fees:

1. For 60 owners with software limited batteries which charge relatively fast right up to the top, the idle fees start at 10 minutes and at a nickle per minute at the 10th minute, increasing a nickle per minute until they are 40 cents per minute.
2. For everyone else, their 80% is the same as a 60's 100%. So, start a clock at 80%. After ten minutes, the clock runs out, and accrue fees at the same rate as the 60 above from the 10 minute point since the 80% point, but waive them, until the car has been at 100% for five minutes, similar as current system. Then, give them all those charges as soon as they hit the 5 minute point (which could start off at around $6 or so, going up by $0.40/minute from then on).

These can be made equal by always going off the internal battery size 80%, regardless of the nameplate software limiting.
I had no idea that all the rest of the fleet had such excruciatingly slow charging from 90% to 100%. If I had, I would have realized the idle fees were more appropriate for all the other cars in the fleet, and totally inappropriate for the 60 (which SuperCharges often, gets wildly incorrect completion estimates which go up and down with reality by wild swings, and charges fast right to the top). Even for the rest of the fleet, the incrementing charges I explained above would still be lighter fare.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I think fees should accrue for anyone charging over 95% regardless of whether it is necessary or not. This would stop the gaming of the idle time system using the slider for people to charge to electrons they don't need. if you need to take up up a supercharger stall for an extra 20 minutes to get from 95 to 100% bc u don't want to find a destination charger or another way to charge for your convenience, you should pay the extra $8 and be done with it. If you need the extra 10 miles to make it to the next supercharger or to you destination/destination charger same thing. it is not right for you to get a free 10-20 minutes of someone else's time b/c of your lifestyle choices. (move to a different residence/summer home, pick another hotel, go on vacation somewhere else.) Don't want to bother changing yr life choices? Put a few $$ in the pot -- or get a different car...

Wow. Get a different car? How arrogant! My old-style S60 works fine for road trips but it does take twice as long to charge as your S85. And for some trip legs I have to charge to 95% and still drive slowly to make the next Supercharge Station.

However, where I drive and charge there aren't lines and most of the time there isn't a single other car charging while I'm there. And I'm being inconsiderate by deigning to drive and Supercharge my S60? Again, wow!

In my 132 Supercharging stops (yes, really, I have some experience with this) I've passed a full Supercharger Station once (San Juan Capistrano CA) and waited for a full station once (Fountain Valley CA, charged just enough to get back to San Diego). Of those 132 stops ~127 were less than half full; most of them completely empty. Shocking though it may seem, this is the norm for a lot of us road trippers. We aren't blocking or inconveniencing anybody.

 

[GoTslaGo]

False in my experience; I had a software limited 60, with a 75 pack inside. 95% to 100% is a few minutes, plus or minus ten minutes depending on temperature and sharing.

Wow, I had no idea about how slow the charging is at the top of the range for most Teslas. That's a huge impact: the undue impact on 60 owners is overly wrought; they already had to squeeze to afford the car, and they're being gouged because of totally inaccurate time estimates by the car for when the charge ends, wildly so. Anybody else just gets to skate right past all of the idle fee charges because they can eat into their upper-end buffer that the 60 doesn't have (except permanently, without ability to charge into), and that takes forever (20 minutes as you stated), practically guaranteeing you'll never be charged idle fees (who needs more than ten minutes to finish walking from the store or finishing in the bathroom?).

I had a disproportionate impact from the idle fees.

But, put into context of how often SuperChargers are used, how far we are going and how often we go that far, it may all wash out as still not that much of a big deal, provided they can fix the actual numbers.

I think there should be two tiers of idle fees:

1. For 60 owners with software limited batteries which charge relatively fast right up to the top, the idle fees start at 10 minutes and at a nickle per minute at the 10th minute, increasing a nickle per minute until they are 40 cents per minute.
2. For everyone else, their 80% is the same as a 60's 100%. So, start a clock at 80%. After ten minutes, the clock runs out, and accrue fees at the same rate as the 60 above from the 10 minute point since the 80% point, but waive them, until the car has been at 100% for five minutes, similar as current system. Then, give them all those charges as soon as they hit the 5 minute point (which could start off at around $6 or so, going up by $0.40/minute from then on).

These can be made equal by always going off the internal battery size 80%, regardless of the nameplate software limiting.
I had no idea that all the rest of the fleet had such excruciatingly slow charging from 90% to 100%. If I had, I would have realized the idle fees were more appropriate for all the other cars in the fleet, and totally inappropriate for the 60 (which SuperCharges often, gets wildly incorrect completion estimates which go up and down with reality by wild swings, and charges fast right to the top). Even for the rest of the fleet, the incrementing charges I explained above would still be lighter fare.

Now it makes more sense! So you had a 60 which can full charge similar to a 75 going to 80%--which is super fast. This makes the tactic employed by others of charging to 100% irrelevant. If you don't mind me asking, how long did it usually take to full charge? And what was your usual state of charge before charging (20%, 30%, etc...?).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

In my 132 Supercharging stops (yes, really, I have some experience with this) I've passed a full Supercharger Station once (San Juan Capistrano CA) and waited for a full station once (Fountain Valley CA, charged just enough to get back to San Diego). Of those 132 stops ~127 were less than half full; most of them completely empty. Shocking though it may seem, this is the norm for a lot of us road trippers. We aren't blocking or inconveniencing anybody.

Yes, California certainly seems to be one of the few (only?) places in the world where there is actual Supercharging congestion.

Solution: global idle charges!

(The under 50% capacity waiver rule does help a bit, but in reality it just means some of us will get idle charges when that occasional second car appears at the four stall Supercharger, hardly inconveniencing anyone... It would be better if exact 50% would still be waived.)

 

[Ulmo]

Now it makes more sense! So you had a 60 which can full charge similar to a 75 going to 80%--which is super fast. This makes the tactic employed by others of charging to 100% irrelevant. If you don't mind me asking, how long did it usually take to full charge? And what was your usual state of charge before charging (20%, 30%, etc...?).

Here's a few graphs from TeslaFi: Unfortunately, I can't find a way to expand the vertical axis quickly:

 

[KJD]

I had a software limited 60, with a 75 pack inside. 95% to 100% is a few minutes, plus or minus ten minutes depending on temperature and sharing.

How much would it cost you to do the software upgrade to make your pack a true 75 ?

 

[Ulmo]

How much would it cost you to do the software upgrade to make your pack a true 75 ?

$2,000, give or take about $90K (because I sold my car). I was about to do it, too.

 

[bmah]

bmah.. actually this is where you lose me. As much as I get what you are saying.. I like to drive my Model S like I stole it. It is not right for me to expect that the rest of the Tesla community will subsidize my shitty driving habits bc I don't want to be a more careful driver and simply gorge myself at a supercharger spot while others wait. I place headwinds and rain and other unforeseen circumstances in the same category. if you are outside the average use case, you should be expected to contribute something to "the pot" that will hopefully make its way into a better Tesla driving experience for the entire community.

Apparently I did lose you because you seem to be reacting to something that I neither meant nor wrote.

Bruce.

 

[Galve2000]

$2,000, give or take about $90K (because I sold my car). I was about to do it, too.

what are u going to be driving now? and in the near future?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I just went through my TeslaFi records from a recent trip and out of many Supercharging stops, the only times the car was done before the original estimate were when I stopped it before it completed, and one time in The Dalles when it took 1 hr 14 min instead of 1 hr 30 min estimated.

It's not straightforward to me to export all of these and parse the ones where I disconnected sooner than expected from the others, then create a scatter plot or whatever. But it would be interesting to see overall user data where they charge all the way to the set amount. Based on my ~30 Supercharger stops on that trip, it appears that a mismatch is quite rare.

Thank you for the reports.

It is not just the cases where the time is shorter than expected, though of course that is the worst from idle charges point of view. It can be almost equally difficult when the charge is taking longer than expected and estimating that long charge becomes hard - because it too forces you into either a pattern of closely monitoring a lengthy process (on the screen, through the app) and if you don't, you risk missing it... One issue is the condition of certain Superchargers, where ther the speed may vary from what is expected.

There are several threads about this issue on TMC, one of the more recent ones here:

Supercharger getting mostly Chademo speeds

It would be interesting to learn how often the estimate given by the car (either at start or even at some stage after it, like 10 minutes after start) is within 5 minutes of the charge completion. Any thoughts?

 

[Cyclone]

Every time I charge, I get a message on the screen which tells me how long it will take to complete the charge. This is usually very accurate. This information is also available on the phone app and is updated regularly throughout the charge.
Really, folks, it's not that complicated. Just pay attention and don't go wandering off for a flaming steak dinner.

While that is sometimes correct for me, more often than not, the time it states 15 minutes into charging is more accurate. But by then, I've committed to what I'm doing at the rest stop and may not be able to get back to my car sooner if it ends earlier (and if I get charged an idle fee, so be it).

I personally feel that Tesla should change the grace from waiving the first five minutes if you get back in time to simply not charging the first five minutes. So minute 6 is $0.40 and so on. Additionally, Tesla should expand that grace period if when the car first plugged in it reported 30 and then went down to 20 minutes, the 5-minute grace shouldn't even start until 30 minutes.

Combining these two features would go a long way and basically provide a "plug in and be back before XYZ time to avoid a fee". Sure, sometimes the charge would slow down and sure, you should check the car occasionally along the charge, but that isn't always the case or practical and this would provide a good baseline.

And before anyone jumps out about notifications, I have a iPhone 6S running the latest OS on Verizon in Charlotte NC (a major metro IMO) with 4-5 dots/bars of service and I regularly don't get the "almost complete" notification and only get the "charging completed" notification. And sadly, often times, the charging completed notification comes sooner than the car originally said it would be ready. As such, I've started plugging in, setting a timer, and moving to 100%. If I get service (Charlotte yes, but other Superchargers maybe), I will monitor the car occasionally and get out to move it early if I can.

 

[Cyclone]

I think fees should accrue for anyone charging over 95% regardless of whether it is necessary or not. This would stop the gaming of the idle time system using the slider for people to charge to electrons they don't need. if you need to take up up a supercharger stall for an extra 20 minutes to get from 95 to 100% bc u don't want to find a destination charger or another way to charge for your convenience, you should pay the extra $8 and be done with it. If you need the extra 10 miles to make it to the next supercharger or to you destination/destination charger same thing. it is not right for you to get a free 10-20 minutes of someone else's time b/c of your lifestyle choices. (move to a different residence/summer home, pick another hotel, go on vacation somewhere else.) Don't want to bother changing yr life choices? Put a few $$ in the pot -- or get a different car.

If Tesla did this, I would likely live with it knowing that it's striking a balance between availability and being punitive. I do appreciate you specifically put 95% vs. 90%. That last 5% really does that a long time and given the continuing expansion of the Supercharger network, I could foresee a time when that last 5% is not needed to get to the next Supercharger.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I personally feel that Tesla should change the grace from waiving the first five minutes if you get back in time to simply not charging the first five minutes. So minute 6 is $0.40 and so on. Additionally, Tesla should expand that grace period if when the car first plugged in it reported 30 and then went down to 20 minutes, the 5-minute grace shouldn't even start until 30 minutes.

Combining these two features would go a long way and basically provide a "plug in and be back before XYZ time to avoid a fee". Sure, sometimes the charge would slow down and sure, you should check the car occasionally along the charge, but that isn't always the case or practical and this would provide a good baseline.

Thank you for the great post. I too have made a similar suggestion, so yes, I would find this a good solution. I would even be willing to remove the "not charging for 5 minutes" part if a guaranteed time is given after which idle starts (earliest), though of course your suggestion is more forgiving and thus more humane.

The biggest part that would be good about this is the predictability. If you give people predictability, then holding them accountable even very strictly is far more reasonable than when it is very hard for them to predict the outcome.

 

[Galve2000]

Wow. Get a different car? How arrogant! My old-style S60 works fine for road trips but it does take twice as long to charge as your S85. And for some trip legs I have to charge to 95% and still drive slowly to make the next Supercharge Station.

However, where I drive and charge there aren't lines and most of the time there isn't a single other car charging while I'm there. And I'm being inconsiderate by deigning to drive and Supercharge my S60? Again, wow!.

I mean only when the SC is more than 50% occupied. You are right this penalizes cars with a smaller battery more than cars with bigger battery. but you know perhaps those of us who splurged on a bigger battery should get a minor benefit.

In my 132 Supercharging stops (yes, really, I have some experience with this) I've passed a full Supercharger Station once (San Juan Capistrano CA) and waited for a full station once (Fountain Valley CA, charged just enough to get back to San Diego). Of those 132 stops ~127 were less than half full; most of them completely empty. Shocking though it may seem, this is the norm for a lot of us road trippers. We aren't blocking or inconveniencing anybody.

Then by your own experience you will only have to deal with idling fees a mere 3.7878787878% of the time. may this ratio always hold true for you. with 400,000 supercharger enabled model 3's in the pipeline, i'm not so sure it will.

 

[Electroman]

I think fees should accrue for anyone charging over 95% regardless of whether it is necessary or not.

Agree 100%. If the objective is to maximize the use of SCs without compromising the ability to do raod trips comfortably, then the idle fees should start at 95%.

Why? because for 90% of the travelers (I know I am making this number up and you don't need to point that out) that extra 12 miles you get is not needed. For those that need those last bit of juice and miles, you can afford to pay a few cents to the inconvenience you are causing to others waiting. The last 5% takes upto 15 minutes or more sometimes.

 

[TexasEV]

Agree 100%. If the objective is to maximize the use of SCs without compromising the ability to do raod trips comfortably, then the idle fees should start at 95%.

Why? because for 90% of the travelers (I know I am making this number up and you don't need to point that out) that extra 12 miles you get is not needed. For those that need those last bit of juice and miles, you can afford to pay a few cents to the inconvenience you are causing to others waiting. The last 5% takes upto 15 minutes or more sometimes.

Free supercharging means free supercharging. It doesn't mean it's ok to charge a fee for the last 5%, no matter how much it annoys someone with a bigger battery who doesn't need to fully charge.

 

[Electroman]

Free supercharging means free supercharging. It doesn't mean it's ok to charge a fee for the last 5%, no matter how much it annoys someone with a bigger battery who doesn't need to fully charge.

ya really? How about this - What if Tesla shuts off the SC at 95% charge for everyone? Cool then your requirement of free charging - which you believe you are entitled to at the expense of others waiting - is still satisfied.

They could as a matter of convenience provide one 75 amp L2 charger at the end if you need to charge the last 5%. I bet you, none of you would use that 75 amp L2 except of course when you absolutely need that juice.

 

[stopcrazypp]

ya really? How about this - What if Tesla shuts off the SC at 95% charge for everyone? Cool then your requirement of free charging - which you believe you are entitled to at the expense of others waiting - is still satisfied.

They could as a matter of convenience provide one 75 amp L2 charger at the end if you need to charge the last 5%. I bet you, none of you would use that 75 amp L2 except of course when you absolutely need that juice.

I don't think it's that complicated. Tesla won't do that simply because of consumer relations. They have to strike a balance between this being a punitive measure and not pissing off too many customers. There are already people complaining about how the grace period is charged for once the charges accrue and asking for longer grace periods. But I bet a lot more people would complain if idle fees start at 95%.