Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[S4WRXTTCS]

This change is going to inconvenience me slightly, just as it will many honest travelers. There are times when I'm at a restaurant, and the bill has come, and we're waiting on the check. The car might be a 10 minute walk, and I get the notification that it's done. I'll often wait for the check and get back to the car afterwards.

There will be times when it seems absurd. Superchargers vacant except for my car, and me hurrying back to it to find that my solo car is about to start charging. Or, leaving a hotel room in the morning and topping off before I go (of course didn't park there overnight, we never did). Zipping up my bag and I realize the car's done charging. I have to run down, unplug, run back up and get my bag to check out.

All of those inconvenient and absurd times mean nothing compared to the times I'm trying to get home and see my kids, and there's a line at the Supercharger because someone values their time more than the rest of the Tesla community.

That sounds fair, and I love it.

But, see you get a great benefit in exchange for that inconvenience.

For a lot of us that live outside of California we don't get the benefit. Instead we have to play silly little games like changing the charge current limit from 90% to 100% just in case we're a little late. We have to rush back to our car when the charge for some reason stops unexpectedly (which has happened to me a few times in 16+ months of ownership). We have to remember that what dictates what we do at the supercharger isn't what we see, but that it's a Tesla Charger. We have to tell anyone who might borrow/rent the car to make sure they unplug so we don't get charged. Any mistake they make is a mistake we have to pay for.

I absolutely hate the implementation of it, but not the general concept of it. I'm certainly not against it being implemented at busy superchargers. I want you to be able to get home to see your kids.

If I lived in California I of course would love it.

 

[ev-now]

If all stalls are full then I don't mind hiking back in the middle of dinner to move my car so someone else can charge. But doing so in the middle of dinner with my family when there are empty stalls is insane.

Sorry, I meant to say I do agree with your rural location, open stall points. I just think that people are hard to train, and it's better to drive the assumption you WILL move the car as soon as practical, than it all being contextual.

Having never managed to see an open stall at PM, I have not investigated the software as this was about trying it, not needing it. Does it queue vehicles? So the system knows there is a car waiting?

Presumably this issue will in theory be eased by the cars doing a shuffle as needed if they are FSD enabled and it does what it's supposed to, and gets approved - but that's all a ways off, and many of the current abusers have vehicles which will NOT be doing that.

 

[patyoungsc]

I really don't understand why you would only get 5 minutes grace period to get to your car. I've charged on road trips a bunch of times and always try to time those stops with a meal. Most superchargers (in the southeast at least) aren't in very convient areas so you usually need to walk 5-15 minutes to get anywhere decent. That harldy leaves time to walk to a restaurant and back never mind actually eating and paying. One of their big selling points was that you could grab a meal or shop or something while your car charged, but you can't even do that with this system. Seems to me that fees should only rack up after an hour and even then only when the charger is full.

Many of the ones around here are also located at hotels and this is presumably on purpose yet if you get in late you can't plug in there because you will definitely get hit with a fee if you go to sleep. This seems dumb as there aren't going to be more cars showing up in the middle of the night. Fees should probably just be in place for certain hours like between 9a and 11p or something like that.

Also, I've never been to a charger that had more than 2 other cars and I'm almost always the only car there. I've seen just as many spots ICE'd as other Teslas and of course this won't help that at all.

The whole comparison to a gas station seems absurd, how can you compare less than a minute to 45 minutes / over an hour. Seems like Tesla wants you to just sit in your car and wait around? Or maybe take a walk, but not more than 5 minutes away. Get something to eat if you want but it has to be fast food. Or just add another hour for every couple hundred miles you drive where you just sit in the car.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don't have an answer for your question, but I'm hoping anyone who's awake to turn on the heater will just move the car.

The people that make a habit of sleeping in their car use a service to turn on the heater every 30 minutes or so.

It's not really going to change what they do. They just have to make sure they unplug after charging to 90% or so. Then recharge again when they get up a few hours later. I could potentially build a remote trigger that would trigger the unlock on the charger to trick the car into thinking I was disconnected.

It's certainly not going to dissuade me from doing what I'd normally do. It just makes it more of a hassle than it needed to be without any benefit.

The vast majority of the time the biggest obstacles are ICE cars in the way (at hotels), or idiot owners that can't seem to park their Tesla correctly. Where they take up multiple spots. Or trying to get into a supercharger at an Outlet mall when it's crazy busy like a black friday,

I'm not someone who abuses the superchargers so it doesn't correct anything I do. It just annoys me.

 

[GoTslaGo]

But, see you get a great benefit in exchange for that inconvenience.

For a lot of us that live outside of California we don't get the benefit. Instead we have to play silly little games like changing the charge current limit from 90% to 100% just in case we're a little late. We have to rush back to our car when the charge for some reason stops unexpectedly (which has happened to me a few times in 16+ months of ownership). We have to remember that what dictates what we do at the supercharger isn't what we see, but that it's a Tesla Charger. We have to tell anyone who might borrow/rent the car to make sure they unplug so we don't get charged. Any mistake they make is a mistake we have to pay for.

I absolutely hate the implementation of it, but not the general concept of it. I'm certainly not against it being implemented at busy superchargers. I want you to be able to get home to see your kids.

If I lived in California I of course would love it.

That's for now. Don't forget the Model 3 is coming out, and it seems they're in demand everywhere. By learning from the current chaos in California, Tesla is likely trying to prevent the problem from being an issue elsewhere when the Model 3 is out in force.

 

[scottm]

About not paying your Tesla bill... the answer is easy. Outstanding balance on the account and the car is denied charging at SC n3twork.

I'd suggest don't screw around with the mothership, you gotta understand which deck you're living on the ship...

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

That's for now. Don't forget the Model 3 is coming out, and it seems they're in demand everywhere. By learning from the current chaos in California, Tesla is likely trying to prevent the problem from being an issue elsewhere when the Model 3 is out in force.

Like I said I have no issues with it being implemented at problematic superchargers.

I also believe it should have happened AFTER they had a billing system in place where they added Services. I thought Tesla was going to start rolling out services like Valet, or Car washing. Where at specific superchargers you could pay a fee to have the car moved.

That way it could create demand for a valet, and he/she would be in pretty big demand. Much easier to pay someone to move the car than pay the $24 an hour to leave it sitting there.

The Model 3 is going to be a complete game changer. Not only that, but you have the tons of money that VW is forced to invest into a charging infrastructure. Plus the Model 3 should be capable of moving itself out of the way if the Snake charger is rolled out.

 

[scottm]

Unplug after the warnings and car still sitting there? Don't be daft, Tesla knows where the car is and if it has been moved... you get billed anyway.

Next step is any Tesla sitting in SC spot, for any length of time NOT charging, gets charged the idle fee per minute.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Only a very few Tesla owners are dogs who need training. Most are intelligent and fairly considerate—no training necessary.

In many cases it will be years, if ever, before stalls will be consistently filled. While this is sorely needed at some chargers today and will certainly be needed at more chargers as time and sales continue, it is not now nor will likely ever be critical for many.

 

[kavyboy]

Here's how to make this work with everyone being happy: stick to the new plan, but when there are empty stalls, waive the fees. Make it obvious to users that they were indeed charged, but for locations with empty stalls grant a good-will refund due to low congestion at that time and place. That has the same practical impact of reducing congestion when needed, but now idle users at low-use locations probably (but not definely, so move!) won't be punitively charged.
I don't want my charges to be the result of some complicated equation where I'm not quite sure if I got ripped off or not. I would rather assume that I will be charged at a known flat rate and trust that some common sense discount kicks in.

 

[ElectricTundra]

BTW, there is another thread on this in the Tesla Motors forum that I assume this will get merged in to when mods have time.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/improving-supercharger-availability-0-40-idle-fee

 

[eye.surgeon]

fully approve of this. It will make a huge difference here in California. At the less busy superchargers, so what, move it anyways. It's not a parking lot.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Unplug after the warnings and car still sitting there? Don't be daft, Tesla knows where the car is and if it has been moved... you get billed anyway.

Next step is any Tesla sitting in SC spot, for any length of time NOT charging, gets charged the fee per minute.

The app is supposed to be able to tell if you're incurring fee's. So we should know very soon if unplugging the car stops the idle fee.

If I'm at a supercharger, and not charging there is usually a reason for this. Either an accident happened on a road I needed, or the weather is horrible. Or I'm just getting some sleep, but I'm in the car.

 

[scottm]

Another possibility . .. when car reaches charge level and 5 minutes pass, Tesla unlocks the chargeport and blinks it orange. Has a standing contract with towing service to look for orange ports and move the car. Owner billed the tow charge... No pay? No more SC for you.

Oh ya baby, this 40 cents per minute thing is just a warning shot over the bow.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Like I said I have no issues with it being implemented at problematic superchargers.

I also believe it should have happened AFTER they had a billing system in place where they added Services. I thought Tesla was going to start rolling out services like Valet, or Car washing. Where at specific superchargers you could pay a fee to have the car moved.

That way it could create demand for a valet, and he/she would be in pretty big demand. Much easier to pay someone to move the car than pay the $24 an hour to leave it sitting there.

The Model 3 is going to be a complete game changer. Not only that, but you have the tons of money that VW is forced to invest into a charging infrastructure. Plus the Model 3 should be capable of moving itself out of the way if the Snake charger is rolled out.

Sounds like a potentially good business opportunity now for a private vendor...

If I am at a busy supercharger eating and my phone buzzs me saying my supercharger time is about up, I could have an app that I call up. The person then goes to my car, I would have to unlock it for them, and they would unplug and move it for me for 10 bucks or something. Probably only realistic for the busiest of busy.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Sounds like a potentially good business opportunity now for a private vendor...

If I am at a busy supercharger eating and my phone buzzs me saying my supercharger time is about up, I could have an app that I call up. The person then goes to my car, I would have to unlock it for them, and they would unplug and move it for me for 10 bucks or something. Probably only realistic for the busiest of busy.

Potential opportunity for someone who lived in California if the problem is as bad as they're making it out to be. Tesla did pay for valets for some superchargers, but I don't know if that's still occurring.

Limited opportunity though since all the rich people will buy an AP2 car or greater that will move itself out of the way, and pick the person up.

As soon as the AP2 car does that I'll trade in my 70D. Having a car that took care of all that charging stuff itself would be pretty cool.

 

[ElectricTundra]

Good idea, Bad implementation.

This is certainly needed for a full charger. It is completely unnecessary for an empty charger. @ohmman mentioned a few scenarios. Another: when we go on a road trip we plan charging to mostly coincide with meals. As mentioned its not unusual to walk 10-15 minutes away from the charger to find a good restaurant. So just when we get our food served I have to get up and hike back to my lone car and the 7 empty stalls, leaving my wife alone and my food cooling for 20 minutes? Then when I get back do I try to enjoy my cold dinner or gulp it down to get back on the road? In one swipe this changes Tesla from a fairly premium ownership experience to a decidedly un-premium experience that interrupts nice meals for no good reason.

We are dealing with two potentially unknown variables that impact peoples planning. 1) Charging time can vary. It is not unusual to see a voltage drop that adds 15 minutes to charge time. 2) We don't know how long a line will be at a restaurant or how long to prepare and serve our food. Even knowing this can make it difficult but not knowing this makes it much worse. And not receiving a notification on top is worse still.

Weather can make this even more of an issue. Hiking from Applebees to the Country Club Hills charger when it's -5f and snowing is not fun. I did that last January. If it's raining hard but we know it will stop in 10-15 minutes do we hike 1/4 mile to our lone car for no good reason or wait and pay $10?

Tesla are also missing a good opportunity to even charging out over time. Many of us can shift our schedule a bit so that we arrive at a charger during a less busy time so that we can enjoy digesting our lunch without having to worry about being interrupted to move our car. With the current plan of charging everyone every time there is no incentive to do this.

While we will certainly see more chargers filling up with lines of people waiting, we are years or decades away from this happening at the majority of them. We are still the only car charging about 50% of the time so statistically we'll need at least 8 and likely about 20 times as many cars on the road to change that. Unless Tesla plan to open the superchargers up to non Tesla vehicles.

A key point is that charging is a different mode and lifestyle than fueling. At least until we can charge fully in 5 minutes. We can't equate it to filling up at gas station. I don't mind waiting for the 5 minutes that it takes me to fill up with gas and moving immediately. The time required to charge changes this dynamic. We don't stand around and wait. We go have dinner or go shopping or whatever. And sometimes, as with my dinner example above, it's a bit more than slightly inconvenient to have our lives unecessarily dictated to by Tesla.

 

[Phil Seastrand]

Someone posted this on Facebook and I think it might apply to this situation.

A fine is a PRICE. Several behavioral studies have been done on this, and it is highly likely that violations will go up as a result, not down. Common courtesy and social responsibility are far bigger motivators, and by putting a price on abuse you are selling people the right to take their time. The book FREAKONOMICS dedicated a chapter to this unexpected and counter-intuitive outcome. Of major concern is that after abuse goes up as a result of this errant policy, when the penalty is removed the frequency of abuse does not rescind.

Thoughts?

 

[GoTslaGo]

Someone posted this on Facebook and I think it might apply to this situation.

Thoughts?

Profit, if it's true.

If folks find that to be a reasonable price and choose to abuse, then so be it, at least Tesla will make some money. Then they can build more superchargers.

They'll just have to figure out a way to really get the money...

 

[gaswalla]

Folks are talking like they have no idea when the supercharger session will be over. Like the only clue you get is when the app notifies you that charging is all done. The app and the car tell you from the beginning when your charge will be finished. Plan your lunch or dinner to coincide with the end of the charge. No surprises. No one should be surprised when the app notifies them that charging is almost done - it's all according to the plan.
Quit the yapping about why you can't move the car, and go move the car