Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[Ulmo]

Considering the fact that Tesla is charging apparently even for shorter periods than the mentioned 5 minutes from completion, this indeed seems like a very strict system that one can not really plan for, other than by remaining in the car or very close to it watching the app.

Did you fail to plan for the completion, i.e. did the completion come to you as a surprise or did you just risk it?

I think their description is that fees start immediately and there is a five minute grace period; all my sessions with fees above breached the five minutes. They specifically said the accrued charges start immediately. The grace is a waiver if under five minutes; the accrued charges from Complete time 0 through 5 minutes don't go away if not waived by being within grace, and your drop starts at $2.40 as soon as you breach the grace (5+1 minutes); if they measure breach and fee with different accuracy or rounding, the drop may be only $2 upon breach.

I think an improvement would be that all fees start at 5 minutes from completion; the grace would be 5 free minutes, then when grace ends, you'd accrue fees from minute 5 onward (starting at $0).

Both times I wasn't sure if the chargers would be fast or slow. For most the time I owned the car, SuperCharges have been very slow; it wasn't until a month or so ago they sped up. These SuperCharges were both much faster than usual and much faster than the car predicted. However, they were within normal completion times for recent SuperCharge sessions.

For neither session did I expect that I would breach the five minute grace; that came as a surprise to me when I got the bill later. But it isn't implausible in any sort of way. This will be a great way for Tesla to rip off drivers who previously were used to using slower SuperChargers.

I think anybody who leaves their car at a SuperCharger for any reason should expect to accrue hefty idle fees as a matter of course; it's unavoidable. Ditto for taking a nap while SuperCharging. The only way to stay on top of charging is to do some awake inside car activity that is not engrossing (I've caught myself in enticing interaction on my computer that caused me to ignore my car status for excess time at SuperChargers (never with a line)).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I set the charge to 100% to avoid idle charges.

Well, there you go. I doubt that was as intended with the policy. It is silly to have to jump through such hoops. Tesla could solve this with a e.g. policy change making a less than 100% charge equal with a 100% charge when it comes to time at the charger. The end result of relying people to "take only what they need" would be the same and less energy would be spent...

It's amazing how some people can be so adamant about something so trivial.

This is a forum for conversation and thread about the idle charges. No need to make anything bigger of it. We are having a conversation.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think their description is that fees start immediately and there is a five minute grace period; all my sessions with fees above breached the five minutes. They specifically said the accrued charges start immediately. The grace is a waiver if under five minutes; the accrued charges from Complete time 0 through 5 minutes don't go away if not waived by being within grace, and your drop starts at $2.40 as soon as you breach the grace (5+1 minutes); if they measure breach and fee with different accuracy or rounding, the drop may be only $2 upon breach.

I think an improvement would be that all fees start at 5 minutes from completion; the grace would be 5 free minutes, then when grace ends, you'd accrue fees from minute 5 onward (starting at $0).

So that is even worse than I thought. Be late a minute and be charged for six minutes. Did not know that.

Both times I wasn't sure if the chargers would be fast or slow. For most the time I owned the car, SuperCharges have been very slow; it wasn't until a month or so ago they sped up. These SuperCharges were both much faster than usual and much faster than the car predicted. However, they were within normal completion times for recent SuperCharge sessions.

For neither session did I expect that I would breach the five minute grace; that came as a surprise to me when I got the bill later. But it isn't implausible in any sort of way. This will be a great way for Tesla to rip off drivers who previously were used to using slower SuperChargers.

Yes, thank you for the insight. Sounds like the type of scenario I think will end up hitting regular folks the most - the unexpectedly fast Supercharge. I even wonder if Tesla is doing this to cement the bottom line a little, get those small fees in from a lot of owners - too small for them to complain, but get some money rolling in from Supercharging.

I think anybody who leaves their car at a SuperCharger for any reason should expect to accrue hefty idle fees as a matter of course; it's unavoidable. Ditto for taking a nap while SuperCharging. The only way to stay on top of charging is to do some awake inside car activity that is not engrossing (I've caught myself in enticing interaction on my computer that caused me to ignore my car status for excess time at SuperChargers (never with a line)).

Tesla must know 5 minutes is very strict. Perhaps they are doing this to make some money, then.

 

[callmesam]

I think their description is that fees start immediately and there is a five minute grace period; all my sessions with fees above breached the five minutes. They specifically said the accrued charges start immediately. The grace is a waiver if under five minutes; the accrued charges from Complete time 0 through 5 minutes don't go away if not waived by being within grace, and your drop starts at $2.40 as soon as you breach the grace (5+1 minutes); if they measure breach and fee with different accuracy or rounding, the drop may be only $2 upon breach.

I think an improvement would be that all fees start at 5 minutes from completion; the grace would be 5 free minutes, then when grace ends, you'd accrue fees from minute 5 onward (starting at $0).

Both times I wasn't sure if the chargers would be fast or slow. For most the time I owned the car, SuperCharges have been very slow; it wasn't until a month or so ago they sped up. These SuperCharges were both much faster than usual and much faster than the car predicted. However, they were within normal completion times for recent SuperCharge sessions.

For neither session did I expect that I would breach the five minute grace; that came as a surprise to me when I got the bill later. But it isn't implausible in any sort of way. This will be a great way for Tesla to rip off drivers who previously were used to using slower SuperChargers.

I think anybody who leaves their car at a SuperCharger for any reason should expect to accrue hefty idle fees as a matter of course; it's unavoidable. Ditto for taking a nap while SuperCharging. The only way to stay on top of charging is to do some awake inside car activity that is not engrossing (I've caught myself in enticing interaction on my computer that caused me to ignore my car status for excess time at SuperChargers (never with a line)).

1. Why could you not set charging to 100% to give yourself some extra time?

2. If you did, did you note the time provided when charging commenced?

2. Why did/could you not check the status of charging on your phone?

3. Why is this a "great way for Tesla to rip off drivers who were used to using slower Superchargers?"

4. Why should anyone expect idle fees as a matter of course?

5. Why is it unavoidable?

6. Were you aware that Superchargers only accrue idle fees when they are 50%+ full?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm sure @Ulmo will answer for themselves, but my thoughts.

1. Why could you not set charging to 100% to give yourself some extra time?

One could argue this kind of abuse of the percentages should not be necessary to reasonably avoid idle charges... That said, as long as the system is as strict as it is, this kind of abuse certainly is a useful tip.

2. If you did, did you note the time provided when charging commenced?

As he said, the estimates given by the car were later than the charge completion. So the car provided information that misled the owner. This is one thing that I think might become a much larger phenomenon as more and more "regular folk" start using the system with Model 3.

2. Why did/could you not check the status of charging on your phone?

I agree people should stay close and keep watching the phone. The notifications are quite unreliable.

3. Why is this a "great way for Tesla to rip off drivers who were used to using slower Superchargers?"

Because it seems quite likely plenty of people will get charges simply by honest mistake - small enough that they'll just pay them and Tesla gets some extra income.

4. Why should anyone expect idle fees as a matter of course?

Because the only way to reliably avoid them is to sit in the car and monitor it, or keep watching the app while remaining nearby. 5 minutes is easily missed for any other scenario. You can not plan for the exact return time, since there is no exact return time. Charging to 100% helps, but that is a really bad habit that should not be the solution IMO.

5. Why is it unavoidable?

It is not unavoidable, but you do have to change your charging pattern for that - preferably remain in or very near the car watching the screen or the app.

6. Were you aware that Superchargers only accrue idle fees when they are 50%+ full?

I'm sure he was, given that the third of his idle charge episodes was registered but accrued no charges.

The 50+% policy is nice, but really very little help in predicting / avoiding charges as you can not plan for that at all. Same as you can't plan for stall sharing events affecting your charge dramatically - unless you remain in the car or nearby watching the app and the charger banks of course.

The biggest issue IMO is the unpredictability of the idle charge system and very limited time to act if it surprises you with completion. I have no problem with there being an idle charge for those who park at Superchargers for hours on end.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

2. Why did/could you not check the status of charging on your phone?

Cellphone service can be pretty spotty in many states and wifi isn't always available. When I did my first trip in my Model S in December, I didn't have cellphone coverage at any of the Superchargers I stopped at. I did have wifi at one location. The other Superchargers said they had wifi but I couldn't manage to connect or it required a password and I had no idea which wifi network I was 'supposed' to be using. I've since switched networks and am hoping I'll have better luck monitoring my car on future road trips.

 

[callmesam]

Cellphone service can be pretty spotty in many states and wifi isn't always available. When I did my first trip in my Model S in December, I didn't have cellphone coverage at any of the Superchargers I stopped at. I did have wifi at one location. The other Superchargers said they had wifi but I couldn't manage to connect or it required a password and I had no idea which wifi network I was 'supposed' to be using. I've since switched networks and am hoping I'll have better luck monitoring my car on future road trips.

It sounds like you were away from civilization. Did you even share a charger with anyone at the Superchargers without cell service?

My experience is that there are crowds close to cities (or anywhere in California) and remote Superchargers rarely have two cars charging at the same time, let alone greater than 50% full which would result in "idle fees".

 

[ohmman]

I just returned from a 4000 mile road trip through some remote areas without cell service. Idle fees never crossed my mind once, and I was never in danger of accruing any. I can't imagine wanting to overstay a charging event on a road trip, but realize that I may be some bizarre anomaly.

 

[callmesam]

I just returned from a 4000 mile road trip through some remote areas without cell service. Idle fees never crossed my mind once, and I was never in danger of accruing any. I can't imagine wanting to overstay a charging event on a road trip, but realize that I may be some bizarre anomaly.

Imagining starts: Sometimes a person might fall asleep during a charging event. Sometimes your steak gets overcooked at Harris Ranch and you send it back. And then by the time it comes, you finish, get your check, go to the bathroom, you've overstayed your charge.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I just returned from a 4000 mile road trip through some remote areas without cell service. Idle fees never crossed my mind once, and I was never in danger of accruing any. I can't imagine wanting to overstay a charging event on a road trip, but realize that I may be some bizarre anomaly.

Did you charge towards 100%?

Look, I don't really believe everyone will get idle charges all the time. Certainly by staying way beneath the level of full charge, gaining experience and being very vigilant you can avoid them. But @ohmman is hardly the average user we are about to see operate these things. I can easily see a lot of people getting charges similar to @Ulmo.

Maybe that's Tesla's plan all along, to make some money out of it. A few million a year could easily be in it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Imagining starts: Sometimes a person might fall asleep during a charging event. Sometimes your steak gets overcooked at Harris Ranch and you send it back. And then by the time it comes, you finish, get your check, go to the bathroom, you've overstayed your charge.

I think any reasonable person can imagine how a five minute grace from an unpredictable event can be overstayed by regular folks. It really doesn't take much as @Ulmo's case has shown.

Or are some of you guys really saying you don't believe a lot of these idle charge mistakes will happen with this 5 minute policy?

Mind you, I'm not saying it necessarily a problem for Tesla. Perhaps people will happily pay.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

It sounds like you were away from civilization. Did you even share a charger with anyone at the Superchargers without cell service?

My experience is that there are crowds close to cities (or anywhere in California) and remote Superchargers rarely have two cars charging at the same time, let alone greater than 50% full which would result in "idle fees".

The trip was across Colorado and Kansas. The only location with other Teslas was in Hays. There, one car was parked perpendicular to the lines and blocking four stalls. I wasn't concerned about Idle fees. I was interested in monitoring the charging status of my car but I was unable to monitor it since I had no cellular or wifi connectivity.

I probably should've reported the other car but doubt they would've charged him idle fees on the other three stalls that he was blocking.

 

[ohmman]

Did you charge towards 100%?

I charged the minimum I needed to get to my next destination.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I charged the minimum I needed to get to my next destination.

So, percentage was set to...?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Any chance @KJD you could articulate your disagreement with me, considering that you press Disagree with nearly every message I write on this thread, yet have not responded at all? I would appreciate a chance to see what the disagreement is, at least.

 

[Az_Rael]

@Az_Rael

Ah yes, the "only affects a small population" argument - as long as that small population is not you, it is all right

I see you have a smiley there, but I am affected by the policy just as much as you. On my recent road trip, I made sure to pay attention to the car charging times and monitored it via my phone (luckily I had good service) all so I wouldn't get idle fees. My car was set at 100% because I had done a range charge the night before and hadn't remembered to reset the slider.

The only time I stayed longer than the car said I needed to move on was at Harris Ranch because the restaurant was running slow. Even then my car did not even come close complete charging before I got back out to it, I just ended up with extra juice I didn't need to make the next stop (there was not a line at HR, so don't skewer me).

Frankly, if Tesla didn't foresee the 100% slider "work around" for this, then that is bad on them. So people now can self select a longer grace period themselves (by adjusting the slider) or Tesla can adjust the grace period if they get too many complaints.

I am surprised we haven't seen any more reports of anyone with idle fees given the hot button nature of this topic. Makes me wonder what % of Tesla owners are getting them.

 

[ohmman]

So, percentage was set to...?

It varied, as I said. Generally 90% unless I needed more. I was towing, after all.

If you have a beef with me, PM me. Don't use underhanded snark in the public forum. I tire of it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Fair post, @Az_Rael.

Frankly, if Tesla didn't foresee the 100% slider "work around" for this, then that is bad on them. So people now can self select a longer grace period themselves (by adjusting the slider) or Tesla can adjust the grace period if they get too many complaints.

I agree, I believe they did foresee it. But I would think the latter option would, in the end, be a batter solution for all involved. A policy that ends up promoting a harmful percentage of 100% being set in the cars is not really a good one. Also not because it basically potentially adds to queues, instead of taking away from them...

I am surprised we haven't seen any more reports of anyone with idle fees given the hot button nature of this topic. Makes me wonder what % of Tesla owners are getting them.

While I concede it is possible the reason we haven't seen more is because there aren't more, I believe it is far more likely we haven't heard more because Tesla is only now starting to really push it and roll-out a web-based system for the payments. Even there they haven't announced it to people yet or pressed for any payment deadlines...

I think we shall see what the real picture is given time. If it turns out there are only very fee idle charge incidents and people really grasp the 5 minute system well, I will happily concede I was wrong. That said, I am not necessarily expecting any kind of a problem for Tesla, only just the current system will rather easily punish reasonable use and that is something I would prefer to avoid.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It varied, as I said. Generally 90% unless I needed more. I was towing, after all.

Fair enough. And I was genuinely interested in gaining a full insight into what setup you were using when you said you didn't even come close to idle charges. I have Liked many of your posts on the towing tour in the relevant thread as informative.

If you have a beef with me, PM me. Don't use underhanded snark in the public forum. I tire of it.

I thought a bit of levity was on both sides, no?

I'm glad this topic has legs again.

 

[gr2020]

A policy that ends up promoting a harmful percentage of 100% being set in the cars is not really a good one. Also not because it basically potentially adds to queues, instead of taking away from them...

One thing I haven't seen mentioned lately here is, remember that the vast majority of cars will be paying per-minute or per-kWh to supercharge - so there's somewhat of a built-in disincentive to charge at the supercharger longer than necessary.

Two caveats -

1. I'm assuming here that Model 3's will not include free supercharging (this could be wrong, as I haven't been following the model 3 talk too closely), and

2. this also makes assumptions about the _next_ stop for the user; if his next stop is another supercharger, then what I mentioned isn't really a disincentive, unless the current supercharger happens to be more expensive than the upcoming one.