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Incandescent heat pump stuff (out of main)

Lycanthrope

S3XY old dude
Nov 15, 2013
8,889
67,934
At home

Tungsten filament incandescent bulbs aren't perhaps as evil as people think, resides the more pleasant light they give off (not my intention to argue the pros/cons of the blue light content rather the aesthetic quality), the heat they produce in the winter is offset by lower heating costs.

So in theory, if you don't use them much in the warmer months, they're probably better for the environment, given (and this is a bit of a WAG) that they likely have a smaller carbon footprint for manufacture. The negative might be that they don't tend to last very long, so need replacing more often.
 

Carl Raymond

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
1,464
11,464
NSW, Australia
Tungsten filament incandescent bulbs aren't perhaps as evil as people think, resides the more pleasant light they give off (not my intention to argue the pros/cons of the blue light content rather the aesthetic quality), the heat they produce in the winter is offset by lower heating costs.

So in theory, if you don't use them much in the warmer months, they're probably better for the environment, given (and this is a bit of a WAG) that they likely have a smaller carbon footprint for manufacture. The negative might be that they don't tend to last very long, so need replacing more often.

OT

Even if only used when you need heat, two problems immediately. You only get a watt of heat for a watt of energy. With a heat pump (reverse cycle AC) you get three or four times better. Second, it’s likely half your heat will go through the wall or ceiling where the light is affixed.

Incandescents are a giant leap backwards. I usually stay well out of US politics, but this one gets right up my goat. He’s deliberately sabotaging our chances of halting the Keeling Curve, a problem which transcends borders.
 

Fact Checking

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2018
7,517
120,112
Vienna
Tungsten filament incandescent bulbs aren't perhaps as evil as people think, resides the more pleasant light they give off (not my intention to argue the pros/cons of the blue light content rather the aesthetic quality), the heat they produce in the winter is offset by lower heating costs.

That's really misleading though: using incandescent light bulbs for heating is an incredible waste of electricity - a heat pump (such as one in the Model 3 - to stay on topic ;)) will use just 30-40% of the electricity for the same amount of heating.

So incandescent light bulbs are wasting resourcesl both in the winter and in the summer.
 

Fact Checking

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2018
7,517
120,112
Vienna
Technically the A/C is a heat pump. I think he meant a heat pump for heating the cabin. Which indeed it has not AFAIK.

Only by choice: every AC compressor is a heat pump (it's pumping heat) - whether it's cooling or heating the interior volume depends on whether the hot side or the cold side is connected to the internal air.

In practice heat pumps that are also used for the heating of buildings will manage the 'cold side' so that it does not freeze in the winter (which can damage the coils), by inserting regular periods of 'melt cycles', plus they use fans to move external air through an over-sized external heat-exchanger, and have a (mechanical) process to switch the two heat exchangers so that they can be used both for cooling and heating. The compressor itself doesn't really know: it's working in the same heat-pump fashion during both cycles.

So while you can 'invert' a refrigerator by connecting the interior to external air and keeping its compressor side within your home, which might work surprisingly well in the autumn, it probably won't work very well in the winter.
 
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jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,580
22,040
Texas
So in theory, if you don't use them much in the warmer months, they're probably better for the environment, given (and this is a bit of a WAG) that they likely have a smaller carbon footprint for manufacture. The negative might be that they don't tend to last very long, so need replacing more often.
That's really just planned obsolescence by the manufacturers. If you use a European incandescent bulb it will last many decades. Of course, the difference in electricity use between LED and incandescent is staggering. Also LED is now available in 2700K and 3200K just like incandescent. And it's just silly to think that incandescent is environmentally friendly.
 
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Lycanthrope

S3XY old dude
Nov 15, 2013
8,889
67,934
At home
OT

Even if only used when you need heat, two problems immediately. You only get a watt of heat for a watt of energy. With a heat pump (reverse cycle AC) you get three or four times better. Second, it’s likely half your heat will go through the wall or ceiling where the light is affixed.

Incandescents are a giant leap backwards. I usually stay well out of US politics, but this one gets right up my goat. He’s deliberately sabotaging our chances of halting the Keeling Curve, a problem which transcends borders.

That's really misleading though: using incandescent light bulbs for heating is an incredible waste of electricity - a heat pump (such as one in the Model 3 - to stay on topic ;)) will use just 30-40% of the electricity for the same amount of heating.

So incandescent light bulbs are wasting resourcesl both in the winter and in the summer.

ON topic: original Model S used incandescent bulbs in the rear number-plate, one of the first mods to do was to replace this oopart with an LED

OFF topic: agreed about the inefficiency, but what %age of people have heat-pumps? I know one person only
 

Prunesquallor

His cardinal virtue? An undamaged brain.
Dec 19, 2018
2,904
29,562
Houston/Galveston
Tungsten filament incandescent bulbs aren't perhaps as evil as people think, resides the more pleasant light they give off (not my intention to argue the pros/cons of the blue light content rather the aesthetic quality), the heat they produce in the winter is offset by lower heating costs.

So in theory, if you don't use them much in the warmer months, they're probably better for the environment, given (and this is a bit of a WAG) that they likely have a smaller carbon footprint for manufacture. The negative might be that they don't tend to last very long, so need replacing more often.
For my off-topic post of the day, it appears Trump (in typical style) is only trying to undo Obama 2017 regulations that would have taken effect next year. These ban remaining “specialty” incandescent bulbs. No one (at least in the US) makes “regular” incandescent bulbs anymore (old inventory is still available).
How the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 Affects Light Bulbs | US EPA

Edit: the earlier regulations did not “ban” incandescents, but imposed higher efficiency requirements.
 
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
12,904
38,113
Michigan
ON topic: original Model S used incandescent bulbs in the rear number-plate, one of the first mods to do was to replace this oopart with an LED

OFF topic: agreed about the inefficiency, but what %age of people have heat-pumps? I know one person only
Unintended side effects: LED traffic lights can be blocked by snow/ frost build up. (Solvable/ed)

The Huge Advantages (and One Problem) of LED Traffic Lights

More on topic thread:
Why does Tesla use a Resistance Heater instead of Heat Pump
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...resistance-heater-instead-of-heat-pump.85424/
 

Lycanthrope

S3XY old dude
Nov 15, 2013
8,889
67,934
At home
That's really just planned obsolescence by the manufacturers. If you use a European incandescent bulb it will last many decades. Of course, the difference in electricity use between LED and incandescent is staggering. Also LED is now available in 2700K and 3200K just like incandescent. And it's just silly to think that incandescent is environmentally friendly.

No, no, I meant incandescent bulbs fail soon, not LEDs. Yes I know there are warmer LEDs are available, AFAIK they achieve this by flickering on/off rapidly rather than a change in the base colour. At least that is how it was some time back, might have changed in the interim.

In any case, I wear blue-blocker glasses in the evening, they look great with my tin-foil hat.
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,580
22,040
Texas
No, no, I meant incandescent bulbs fail soon, not LEDs.
That's what I meant too. If you take a European incandescent and use it in North America, it will last practically forever. So the short life of incandescents is really just planned obsolescence. Sorry I didn't make that clear.
 
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Lycanthrope

S3XY old dude
Nov 15, 2013
8,889
67,934
At home
That's what I meant too. If you take a European incandescent and use it in North America, it will last practically forever. So the short life of incandescents is really just planned obsolescence. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I am in Europe and I bought some last year and they literally lasted a month each before popping. Maybe they were American imports...

Sorry let's stop this. Can I just say that all the lights in our house are actually LED (now that all the incandescents self-destructed).
 

hobbes

Active Member
Feb 11, 2013
2,605
12,808
Germany
Only by choice: every AC compressor is a heat pump (it's pumping heat) - whether it's cooling or heating the interior volume depends on whether the hot side or the cold side is connected to the internal air.

In practice heat pumps that are also used for the heating of buildings will manage the 'cold side' so that it does not freeze in the winter (which can damage the coils), by inserting regular periods of 'melt cycles', plus they use fans to move external air through an over-sized external heat-exchanger, and have a (mechanical) process to switch the two heat exchangers so that they can be used both for cooling and heating. The compressor itself doesn't really know: it's working in the same heat-pump fashion during both cycles.

So while you can 'invert' a refrigerator by connecting the interior to external air and keeping its compressor side within your home, which might work surprisingly well in the autumn, it probably won't work very well in the winter.

The Renault Zoe that I have been renting before I got my Model 3 does use a heat pump for heating, too - can confirm it works fine in winter. Googled it for some source, see here: Could 2013 Nissan Leaf Use Renault Zoe’s Heat Pump For Cold Weather? And range drop is in fact less than other EVs I have seen (anecdotal from my experience though).
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Mar 8, 2012
19,580
22,040
Texas
The Renault Zoe that I have been renting before I got my Model 3 does use a heat pump for heating, too - can confirm it works fine in winter. Googled it for some source, see here: Could 2013 Nissan Leaf Use Renault Zoe’s Heat Pump For Cold Weather? And range drop is in fact less than other EVs I have seen (anecdotal from my experience though).
From the engineering videos that were published before the release of the S, it's my understanding that the original design had a heat pump. I assume it was nixed due to cost (they were shooting for $50K MSRP and that proved very hard to do). But perhaps it was nixed due to complexity of development (my choice for a long shot second place).
 

Intl Professor

Active Member
May 17, 2013
3,287
11,238
California
ON topic: original Model S used incandescent bulbs in the rear number-plate, one of the first mods to do was to replace this oopart with an LED

OFF topic: agreed about the inefficiency, but what %age of people have heat-pumps? I know one person only

They are quite common in Sacramento. As an all electric house, our winter bills were halved after new heating system installed.
 

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