Incidents of Tesla fires...

[A-Wimoweh]

That Model X fire on the lake was about intentional as you can get... Why else would you risk driving such an expensive car in such a risky environment, alone? I know some car makers will host ice driving schools on lakes, but there are lots of people there to help should something go wrong.
That lake fire has some sort of criminal connection - insurance fraud, murder coverup, disposing of a stolen vehicle, etc. Must have sounded like a brilliant idea, and would have been successful, except heat rises and the ice did not melt under the car(much to my surprise too). Now instead of discretely disposing of it, it has tons of media attention and interest.
Including a case where the car was almost certainly set ablaze intentionally in your list really takes away from the credibility of it.

 

[Chaserr]

Why do you keep avoiding the question about which car you drive, Herr Ingenieur? And where do you work? I guess both answers would point to a big German OEM, making it clear you have a hidden agenda.

Let the troll keep dodging, I think it's funny he's working so hard to pull the wool over our eyes, we're the single most impossible group he could possibly fool and as long as he's wasting time here he's doing no harm.

 

[GreenMtnM3]

A-Wimoweh, there is no evidence that it has been set intentionally. We also have no indication that the driver was alone. A writer for our local paper told me that the driver had taken the car out ice fishing. This tells me that the owner has been contacted, by the paper or police, and foul play has not been alleged. Unfortunately, this doesn't help answer why the car caught fire. I admit that I too initially thought that it could have been burned for insurance or to dispose of a stolen vehicle. Yes, I've seen some bad cop shows in my day as well. But that would not make sense in this case. This is a populated area, and someone would have to be a complete fool not to expect that the fire wouldn't be noticed and called in immediately by the surrounding homes on the lake. I suppose it is possible, but really unlikely.

Many people would call driving a Model X on the lake foolish, but the implied reason is that there is a risk it could break through the ice, not because it could burst into flames. In this part of the country, LOTS of folks drive their vehicles on the ice, and many of them are very heavy and very expensive. Big pickups and SUVs are common, Tesla's not so much. I don't, because every year one or two go through the ice, and often with tragic results. But many people do and do so alone, at night, etc. Some go to fish, some go just to look at the night sky, others go out to do donuts and skids (which does sound fun!). So the fact that someone drove a Tesla out onto the ice is not, in an of itself, a reason to conclude foul play was involved. Hooning around doing donuts? Perhaps.

At this point, I have no indication of what caused this particular fire, and based on what has been posted, no one else here does either, or if they do they are not sharing it. We don't know if it was a Tesla specific cause, or if the cause would have burned up and ICE car too. We just don't know. Hopefully, we learn more soon.

 

[IngTH]

Why do you keep avoiding the question about which car you drive, Herr Ingenieur? And where do you work? I guess both answers would point to a big German OEM, making it clear you have a hidden agenda.

I'm self-employed and do not work in the automobile sector! But i like cars and as i already mentioned i own at the moment 3 american classics (1 prewar, 2 postwar). Even my daily driver/family minivan is partially american (GM/Opel). The only pure european car i own is my Iveco based Hymer camperhome.

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved a post to snippiness, along with a non-snippy reply to such. Attacks on other forum members are against TMC forum rules of conduct.

Thank you,

Bruce.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

I already provided you with a list of the fatal fiery crashes. Here again the 5 of the last 12 months:

Mar. 18: Mountainview, 1 dead driver
May 18: Fort Lauderdale 1 dead driver, 1 dead passenger
Dec. 18 Rindge, NH, 1 dead passenger
Feb. 19 Davie, FL, 1 dead driver

Wait, so you’re just including all crashes where someone died and there was a fire involved, regardless of whether that persons death was related to the fire? I have to admit, you had me thinking you were serious there for a minute.

 

[IngTH]

Wait, so you’re just including all crashes where someone died and there was a fire involved, regardless of whether that persons death was related to the fire? I have to admit, you had me thinking you were serious there for a minute.

Yes and i compared them to 209 fatal fiery crashes of all registered cars in 2013. What's wrong with that except the fact that i compare Teslas with an average age of ~3 years to cars with an average age of ~11 years?

Do think in all these 209 cases fire was the exclusive reason for the fatalities?

Why do you care so much about statistics? I think it's more important to ask why did the accidents happen, why were they so tragic/fatal and what can be done to prevent further accidents to happen and having such tragic consequences?

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Yes and i compared them to 209 fatal fiery crashes of all registered cars in 2013. What's wrong with that except the fact that i compare Teslas with an average age of ~3 years to cars with an average age of ~11 years?

Do think in all these 209 cases fire was the exclusive reason for the fatalities?

Why do you care so much about statistics? I think it's more important to ask why did the accidents happen, why were they so tragic/fatal and what can be done to prevent further accidents to happen and having such tragic consequences?

The first one happened because the guy wasn’t paying attention and the attenuator had been crashed into a week prior, leaving just a solid concrete beam, effectively splitting his car in half. As was said elsewhere, his body was removed from the car *before* it caught fire.

The second happened because the kid rammed his car into a concrete wall at 116MPH. Your chances of surviving such a crash are slim, regardless of the car.

I haven’t looked carefully at the others, but those three don’t really make it sound like there’s a problem.

 

[Electronvolt]

Does speed kill? yes! Is there an unrealistic expectation this car and it's occupants can survive such accident? Maybe, but the answer should be no! Are national database statistics relevant? It shouldn't be, but yet it's frequently referenced.

Why not focus on the bigger question around the safety and integrity of the battery pack? As a Tesla owner, it's becoming more and more apparent that the community is too quick to brush off this topic with a simple answer. 'The driver was to blame for the outcome'. I'd rather dig deeper and focus on the data that missing from the equation.

How many instances of battery pack fires occurred? What information do we have on the strength of the shield protecting the battery packs? How many reports of road debris puncturing a battery pack or what was the result of that impact? Is it fire in ever instance?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I already provided you with a list of the fatal fiery crashes. Here again the 5 of the last 12 months:

Mar. 18: Mountainview, 1 dead driver
May 18: Fort Lauderdale 1 dead driver, 1 dead passenger
Dec. 18 Rindge, NH, 1 dead passenger
Feb. 19 Davie, FL, 1 dead driver

Three of those were caused by reckless speeding where the speeds were awfully high, and the other one the driver would have survived if the crash barrier was reset.

There is no "killer speed" so we don't know exactly at what speed to expect a driver to survive. You seem to expect that the drivers should have survived those accidents, but how probable is that in reality?

You keep adding the statistic of Model S and Model X, but that's not statistically correct. It's only statistically correct to determine the crash rate of the specific vehicle. You absolutely wouldn't add in the Model 3 statistics because it's an entirely different car.

So treat the Model S, and Model X as separate vehicles. One is a large sedan and the other is a crossover.

Then assume that the Model S is a high performance vehicle which it is. It needs to be compared to things like an S8, S7, M5, Porsche, etc.

With high performance cars people do stupid things with them.

Yes, it's tragic that at least in 2 cases the drivers died because they were trapped in the car. That does cause some concern about the door design, and whether changes need to be made to make it easier to exit the vehicle in the event of an accident.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Three of those were caused by reckless speeding where the speeds were awfully high, and the other one the driver would have survived if the crash barrier was reset.

There is no "killer speed" so we don't know exactly at what speed to expect a driver to survive. You seem to expect that the drivers should have survived those accidents, but how probable is that in reality?

You keep adding the statistic of Model S and Model X, but that's not statistically correct. It's only statistically correct to determine the crash rate of the specific vehicle. You absolutely wouldn't add in the Model 3 statistics because it's an entirely different car.

So treat the Model S, and Model X as separate vehicles. One is a large sedan and the other is a crossover.

Then assume that the Model S is a high performance vehicle which it is. It needs to be compared to things like an S8, S7, M5, Porsche, etc.

With high performance cars people do stupid things with them.

Yes, it's tragic that at least in 2 cases the drivers died because they were trapped in the car. That does cause some concern about the door design, and whether changes need to be made to make it easier to exit the vehicle in the event of an accident.

There’s also a sample size problem. When you have this few incidents, one more or one less creates a massive change. Remove the Mountain View driver who was out of the car long before the fire from that dataset and you reduce the apparent likelihood by 20%!

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

There’s also a sample size problem. When you have this few incidents, one more or one less creates a massive change. Remove the Mountain View driver who was out of the car long before the fire from that dataset and you reduce the apparent likelihood by 20%!

The Mountain View one should have never been included.

The OP destroyed his credibility by mentioning that one because everything was known about it. We knew the crash barrier wasn't reset, and we know he'd still be alive if it was. That is the entire reason for the crash barriers existence. We also know he was out of the car long before the fire like you said.

That leaves us with high speed crashes.

I think the OP is missing the more important element.

That is that teenagers have died as a result of reckless speeding. That maybe the best solution isn't to blame Tesla for the fatalities, but instead look for ways that kids can race vehicles on the track.

He is in Germany so I don't know if he understands car culture in places like Florida.

Germany has an outlet for people who want to drive fast. They also have much stricter rules on obtain a license, and keeping a license.

Has he even driven in Florida to know what its like?

 

[Ken7]

Yes and i compared them to 209 fatal fiery crashes of all registered cars in 2013. What's wrong with that except the fact that i compare Teslas with an average age of ~3 years to cars with an average age of ~11 years?

Do think in all these 209 cases fire was the exclusive reason for the fatalities?

Why do you care so much about statistics? I think it's more important to ask why did the accidents happen, why were they so tragic/fatal and what can be done to prevent further accidents to happen and having such tragic consequences?

So IOW, we are supposed to believe you came to TMC to save us from our cars. You are here on a purely humanitarian mission to save lives. Got it.

Now where did I put that bridge I’m selling...

 

[IngTH]

So treat the Model S, and Model X as separate vehicles.

They use nearly the same base. Most of security relevant items are comparable from S to X. So i think its legitim and helpful to consider them as one "model".

Model 3 is totally different and not subject of this discussion!

 

[IngTH]

The OP destroyed his credibility by mentioning that one because everything was known about it.

The 209 fiery crashes on the other hand include such cases too! And after all we are talking about a factor of 24!

 

[Chaserr]

Is this your new "whompy wheel" windmill to tilt at, Mr. Keef?

 

[12Pack]

The 209 fiery crashes on the other hand include such cases too! And after all we are talking about a factor of 24!

Even if correct, this is a lot less than the premature deaths caused by German diesel cars - or do I have to exclude the ones that cheated emissions tests?

 

[IngTH]

OMG, we're speaking about vehicle safety and you change to ecology?

But go back some years when american heavy trucks had a defeat device installed. They emitted ~1,3Mio tons per year of NOx additionally!

And as you should know, NOx is not the primary problem for air pollution related health problems!

 

[StealthP3D]

List of Places where an Internal Combustion Engines Caught Fire:

Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota,
Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota,
Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma,
Tampa, Panama, Mattawa, La Paloma,
Bangor, Baltimore, Salvador, Amarillo,
Tocapillo, Baranquilla, Perdilla,
Boston, Charleston, Dayton, Louisiana,
Washington, Houston, Kingston, Texarkana,
Monterey, Faraday, Santa Fe, Tallapoosa,
Glen Rock, Black Rock, Little Rock, Oskaloosa,
Tennessee to Tennesse Chicopee, Spirit Lake,
Grand Lake, Devils Lake, Crater Lake,
Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Ombabika,
Schefferville, Jacksonville, Waterville, Costa Rica,
Pittsfield, Springfield, Bakersfield, Shreveport,
Hackensack, Cadillac, Fond du Lac, Davenport,
Idaho, Jellico, Argentina, Diamantina,
Pasadena, Catalina,
Pittsburgh, Parkersburg, Gravelbourg, Colorado,
Ellensburg, Rexburg, Vicksburg, Eldorado,
Larimore, Atmore, Haverstraw, Chatanika,
Chaska, Nebraska, Alaska, Opelika,
Baraboo, Waterloo, Kalamazoo, Kansas City,
Sioux City, Cedar City, Dodge City, etc.

 

[IngTH]

Is this your new "whompy wheel" windmill to tilt at, Mr. Keef?

Does Keef speak german too?