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Info on non-Tesla superchargers

Discussion in 'Model Y: Battery & Charging' started by cstork, Nov 14, 2020.

  1. cstork

    cstork Supporting Member

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    A friend is buying a Model Y and asked whether it will be able to use non-Tesla superchargers. I gave this response below. Anyone have additional info?

    Yes, the car trip planner will show non-Tesla superchargers.

    But, it is not so simple.
    1) There are very, very few non-Tesla superchargers out there.
    2) Non-Tesla superchargers don't have a J1772 plug. They either have CHAdeMO(Japanese standard) or CCS (European standard). Tesla sells a CHAdeMO-Tesla conversion plug for $500, but few people buy it. I'm confused why they don't sell a CCS conversion plug. (BTW, Tesla's in Europe have the CCS plug built in since there are many CCS chargers there.)
    3) Most non-Tesla chargers are slow. Most non-Tesla chargers are actually Level-2 (6-12Kwatts) and they have the J1772 plug. The Level-3 non-Tesla superchargers (50-300 Kwatts) are often in the low range (50Watts) while Tesla superchargers are 150-250 Kwatts, which is 3-4 times faster.
    4) When using the trip planner, by default it only shows superchargers >100 Kwatts. You have to change an easy setting to see the slower ones.

    Are you aware of this?
    Level-1 charger is a standard 120 volt, 12 amp wall outlet, about 1.2 Kwatts. Kind of useless. Old. For batteries with a ~50 mile range (Volt, Leaf).
    Level-2 charger is what most people have in their garage, 240 volt, 30-70 amps, 6-14 Kwatts. These have J1772 plugs or Tesla plugs.
    Level-3 chargers are superchargers, 50-300 Kwatts. (They actually use 500 volt, 100-600 amps, DC) This is serious electricity. You can melt a car if the battery can't absorb it. These have the Tesla or CHAdeMO or CCS plugs. Europe is standardizing on CCS because of more government involvement. Tesla has spent $10 billion on their early supercharger network so I don't criticize them for trying to get some personal benefit from it. But, it is a shame there is no standard in the US.

    The ChargePoint app is good and shows you all types of chargers. Get the ChargePoint App | ChargePoint
     
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  2. jcanoe

    jcanoe Member

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    #2 jcanoe, Nov 14, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
    Every new Tesla vehicle comes with a Tesla Mobile Connector and a NEMA 5-15 plug adapter. You can use this setup to charge your Tesla vehicle using Level 1 charging from any standard 120V outlet at ~4 miles of range added per hour. With COVID restrictions and working from home many Tesla owners are able to get by with the Mobile Connector. Additional power plug adapters are available from the Tesla Store so you can use the Mobile Connector with a variety of 120V and 240 outlets, charge at up to 240V and 32A with the NEMA 14-50 plug adapter and NEMA 6-50 plug adapter.

    Tesla includes a J1772 charging adapter with the Tesla vehicle so you can charge your Tesla vehicle at any public Level 2 charging station that uses the J1772 charging connection.

    The Tesla brand of Level 3 charging, aka DC fast charging, is the Tesla Supercharger. Tesla Supercharger stations are located along the interstate highway system, at some rest areas and exits; approximately every 120 miles along a route. Other Tesla Supercharger installations, known as Urban Superchargers, are typically located in parking facilities, some commercial garages. (The cost of using a Tesla Supercharger varies by location; expect to pay ~$0.27 per kWh when charging at a Supercharger.)

    When you charge at a Supercharger location the Tesla vehicle automatically identifies itself, your credit card registered on your Tesla account is automatically billed for the kWh used while charging, also your account will be charged any additional fees including an idling fee if the Supercharger location is busy once charging has been completed. (Idling is discouraged by Tesla as others may be waiting to use the Supercharger.) The $0.27/kWh cost is probably twice what it will cost you to charge at home, probably close to what you would spend on gas in an ICE vehicle. If you have received a referral bonus from Tesla you receive free Supercharger miles (1000 mile equivalent in kWh); these free Supercharger miles must be used within 12 months.)

    As Tesla continues to expand, enhance the Supercharger network the maximum charging rate has increased. The original Supercharger locations were rated to 72kW, later 120kW and 150kW. The newest Supercharger locations can charge at up to 250kW. Urban Supercharger locations charge at up to 72kW. (The actual time difference in charging time when charging at a Supercharger rated at 150kW versus a Supercharger rated a 250kW is probably less than 10 minutes as the peak charging rate of 250kW can only be maintained for up to ~6 minutes, only with the latest battery designs in the latest production Tesla vehicles. When planning a trip it may be preferable to bypass an Urban Supercharger location if there is a higher power Supercharger that is on your route and within your driving range.)

    In the US the only non-Tesla option for Level 3 charging, aka DC fast charging, is to use the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter at a location that supports charging via a CHAdeMO connector. As Tesla continues to expand the Supercharger network (recently Tesla installed the 20,000th Supercharger) there is less need for relying on non-Tesla charging infrastructure and CHAdeMO in most parts of the US. If you need to travel in an area with limited Supercharger locations and want to be able to use available CHAdeMO charging you may be able to rent a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter from a local Tesla owners club. Otherwise, the $450 cost of the CHAdeMO adapter may be a disincentive to using a CHAdeMO charging location. The Tesla CHAdeMO adapter is capable of charging at up to 50kW; most of the existing charging CHAdeMO infrastructure is limited to ~50kW, the latest CCS and CHAdeMO charging installations can support up to 350kW. (In the SF Bay Area and LA area the EVgo network has started to install charging stations that have integrated Tesla CHAdeMO adapters (these are limited to 50kW.) At those locations you would not need to bring your own CHAdeMO adapter to be able to charge, just your credit card.)

    This article, from TeslaTap, lists the various types of available DC Fast Charging and their charging rates (as of June 2020): Supercharging, CCS and CHAdeMO DC Fast Charging – TeslaTap

    The Tesla in-vehicle Navigation system can route you to any nearby Supercharger, also other non-Tesla charging locations along your route.

    Google Maps, PlugShare and Abetterrouteplanner can help you to locate charging locations or plan a trip.
     
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  3. user212_nr

    user212_nr Active Member

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    #3 user212_nr, Nov 15, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
    You should be aware that there is no such thing as a non-Tesla supercharger.
     
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  4. Koolio46

    Koolio46 Member

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    Big vote for PlugShare and abetterrouteplanner
     
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  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    Correct. In the US, the three plug incompatible DC fast charge standards for consumer mass-market plug-in vehicles currently are:
    - Tesla Supercharger w/its proprietary connector used in the US, Canada, South Korea, Japan and probably other regions but NOT Europe
    - CHAdeMO <-- usable by Tesla Model S and beyond via $450 CHAdeMO Adapter
    - SAE Combo (aka Combo1 flavor of CCS, not to be confused with Combo2/CCS2 flavor in Europe) - not currently usable by any Teslas in the US at the moment, at least not officially. There's no adapter from Tesla to make it work although some folks in South Korea have made their own which seems to work from the video I've seen.
     
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  6. SupermodleS

    SupermodleS New Member

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    Quite informative response. Fantastic breakdown good sir. I can't thank you enough for breaking that down, and agreed, it's a shame the US doesn't have a standard.
     
  7. Redbrick

    Redbrick Member

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    Gah! definitely won't use my tesla for long haul traveling. very informative thread though.
     
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  8. frankvb

    frankvb Supporting Member

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    If Tesla made a (US) CCS adapter I might be tempted to buy that, even if it limits to e.g. 50 or 80 kW. Charging stations are being added (e.g. by Electrify America) and often those will have a lot of CCS bays and only 1 Chademo.
     
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  9. cstork

    cstork Supporting Member

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    You are a wimp. I and lots of people use the Tesla for long distance travel. The trip planner is not rocket science.
     
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  10. jsight

    jsight Member

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    Yeah, I doubt there are any suitable chargers on the station. But then again, I guess there aren't any gas stations either? And you wouldn't really use cars for travel there anyway.
     
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  11. jsight

    jsight Member

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    TBH, I feel like these explanations are great, but a little overly complicated. I generally break it down like this:

    1. Charging at home - if you typically travel <40 miles/day, Teslas come with a wall plug that will work with standard outlets. If you go significantly farther, you may want a dryer outlet and a $35 adapter.

    2. Charging on the road - Use trip planner and the superchargers. You may see stations without Tesla logos. These generally have chademo ports available, but the adapter is expensive. If you need the peace of mind, though, its worth it. These chargers are much slower than superchargers, but they always make a good backup due to their availability.

    3. Charging at destinations - J1772 or Tesla connectors will take 8-10 hours to recharge your car, but are often located at hotels and other useful destinations.

    Or you can talk about CHAdeMO, amperage limits, voltages, charge curves, V3s vs V2s, stall sharing, and all the other fun things that you can know about! Then watch their eyes glaze over as it all sounds so complicated. :)
     
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  12. Redbrick

    Redbrick Member

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    ...even this is kinda complicated.
    with my ice...fill up once a week...done. wana go somewhere? grab your bags, let's go...done. Oh you wana go in the tesla? ...hold on, let me print out the directions above...and call whoever we're visiting that we will probably be a few hours late due to detours. Nice cars, but not ready for real road travel...great for intown romps though.
     
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  13. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    I am curious on why you are so turned off by this. I have an older Model S, and am always looking for road tripping excuses. I've done 3,000 and 5,000 mile road trips across the country and loved it. And the newer Model 3 and Y have much more range and much faster charging than my car, so it's way better.
     
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  14. Redbrick

    Redbrick Member

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    looks like all the chargers are...meh....but there will be gas stations everywhere...the money grubbers made sure of that.
     
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  15. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    Aaaand none of this is really true and just shows a lack of experience with it yet and a lot of incorrect assumptions.

    I never print out anything or even pre-plan anything most of the time. If you're just on interstates to another city, it's all covered and needs no planning.
    Also nonsense. What detours? It's rare that there is any route I would do differently in our Tesla versus a gas car.

    On my 5,000+ mile trip across the country in 2018, I very intentionally DID NOT pre-plan it for this very reason--to dispel this kind of nonsensical fear and false propaganda. I didn't even pre-select which cities I would stop in. I did AirB&Bs across the country. I would wake up in the morning and look on my tablet about how far I would want to go that day, pick a city near that with a Supercharger in it, and just book another AirB&B there for the next night. Super simple, no instructions printed, no muss, no fuss.

    My way out there was from Idaho, down to I-70 and then across the country to Ohio and then up into Michigan. And then on the way back, I decided on a whim to take a different route back home. So I took the more leisurely southern route down through Oklahoma and Texas and took I-40 back. I got to see 4 Corners and then came back up through Utah back to Idaho. It's was all easy and fine and didn't need any pre-planning or worry.

    I always find this funny when people who haven't done something are telling the people doing it that it can't be done.
     
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  16. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    [facepalm] It was a joke referring to your location being listed as "Babylon 5". No gas stations there either.
     
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  17. Redbrick

    Redbrick Member

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    Great question...and you're the first to ask..here's why.... I was on the road one afternoon running errands, suddenly got a call that a relative was dying of covid. The car had ~25% charge. I had to leave town now if I'm going to make it to bfe before....Open better route planner...maps..google maps, etc. She lived so far and remote that not even a supercharger or basic charger was on route. lot's of buckees on the way though. Had to drop off the tesla and get the 1/3 filled apocalypse truck out.. Fortunately I saved that truck.... that's why tesla are not versatile...you have to 'plan.' none of this spur of the moment travel. There was another incident that required urgent travel...same thing....tesla had to stay. Boy would I have preferred to take the tesla...I love the automation...but useless when it's not at the ready. That was the first time I came to realize what I had purchased.....I still like the tesla...but it's not what is all cracked up to be.
     
  18. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    And here's another thing about traveling: plot some trips with a Model Y.

    I just entered Reno, NV to Salt Lake City, UT in Google maps directions. That shows 7 hours and 6 minutes, but that is with no stops at all included. There will be some kind of meal stop at least in a 7 hour drive, so some extra time added to that--7 and a half hours? Maybe 8?

    I plotted the Reno to SLC drive in www.abetterrouteplanner.com, which includes the charging stops along the way, and it shows 8 hours 22 minutes. And the point is, you plug in and get to walk away and do other things like eat at those stops, so the stops share a purpose and most of that is not extra time.

    So for a lot of these trips with the range and charging speed of the 3 and Y, they're not much different than a gas car on time for trips.
     
  19. Redbrick

    Redbrick Member

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    ....I smell a fb....<snif>...stinks...
     
  20. Rocky_H

    Rocky_H Well-Known Member

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    #20 Rocky_H, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
    You are describing real situations, but they sound very unique to where you live and Supercharger scarcity in that area, which I am assuming is not actually Babylon 5. Whereabouts is this?

    And I do get that. I live in Boise, and it is next to a gigantic triangular hole in the Supercharger network at the corner of Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada, so there are still a couple of routes next to me (non interstate) where I would still usually take our Honda Civic until they get Superchargers built there. But I also happen to be in an exceedingly rare place in the country that has that issue. You are dismissing the electric vehicle concept entirely because of the situation in your location.
     
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