Elon was asked about the upgrade a while back and he said it wouldn't make sense to change out an existing pack for the range boost ... he said he would recommend waiting because over time the battery upgrades will keep getting better and cheaper. Looks like the replacement is really only intended for some point in the future when more cars start getting to the point of needing to replace batteries anyway due to degradation.
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tstafford
Active Member
I'm still waiting on some actual numbers on the Ludicrous upgrade. The math of the .2 sec 0-60 time AND quarter mile time makes no sense to me. If it's real, then I am surely out. But I'm keeping an open mind for now.
Yep, I hear you. The math of 0.2 sec 0-60 time AND quarter mile time for $7,500.00 plus tax, makes no sense to me.
By the time that happens, the 6 month window for getting it, could be, and probably will be closed because we are coming up on winter, and many of the Northeastern tracks will be closing soon. Unless someone is able to test it in the south or on the west coast or one of the Rocky Mountain states. But there are the issues of first, someone actually getting it.....and secondly, actually testing it. That has to happen within the next approximately 5 months, because Ludicrous is going into one month of being offered for P85D owners. It's only supposed to be offered for 6 months.
Someone will have to be the guinea pig. And that someone will have to part with $7,500.00 plus sales tax for that privilege. So around 8 grand. If I were to spend 8 grand and discover that I had only picked up 2 tenths in the quarter, I'd be ready to kill somebody.
But someone is going to have to be the guinea pig. Any volunteers???
I'm probably out unless Tesla themselves make a "numerical" statement as to what to expect in the quarter mile, like they did when they said that 10.9 was what the P90D Ludicrous would run. Of course that has yet to be seen anywhere that I know of. But still, if it doesn't come to pass, then people who bought P90D Ludicrous equipped cars would have a leg to stand on. They could argue that they were promised 10.9. If no one reaches it, and especially if no magazine reaches it, then those customers would have a legitimate gripe.
P85D owners who would upgrade to Ludicrous, well, all that they've been promised thus far are 2 tenths in the 0-60 and 2 tenths improvement in the quarter, and that's it. Tesla is not giving an actual time to expect, such as "11.0" or "11.1" in the quarter. Until they do that, well then I'm probably going to pass. I want them to put into writing, the number it's supposed to be able to run.
I'd like to see them make more of an ironclad statement as to what this upgrade offers, I want to see actual performance numbers, that they ran, as opposed to simply "2 tenths improvement in 0-60 and quarter mile time".
Indeed, I'd like to see more of what Ludicrous actually offers in the P90D cars too. I'm really watching that, because thus far, at least for me, I've not seen anything that I'm overly impressed with in the supposedly unadulterated P90D version of Ludicrous. The results I've seen thus far, are a long way from 10.9. Throw in that the P85D version of it is suppose to be less than a direct performance match, and I'm even more lukewarm about this upgrade.
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Look, I'm near Fremont. And I'll go on record, right here, right now - I am willing to be that guinea pig!!! But all y'all above me on the list need to get out my way. Maybe I'm being dumb about Ludicrous but I prefer to think that I'm just being less smart.
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I applaud you for stepping up to the plate and possibly taking one for the team. Indeed, possibly taking a big hit for the team. That's risk that not everyone will take, and you deserve a lot of props for that. And I hope that someone else decides to join you.
Let us know the instant you get it, and then let us know when you will be headed to the track with it for quantitative results.
Good luck
What's the worst that's going to happen? I spend some money before I die. I was going to do that anyways.
mike-415
Member
We're going to upgrade our P85D at Freemont (we got on the list on the first day) and I have a friend with a VBox, so I'll have before/after numbers. I also have a friend testing a P90DL with the same VBox, so we'll have comparable results for all three. My question is when the heck my upgrade will happen!
Do all 3 of you have the same wheel & tire combination? If not, just a heads-up that comparing your Vbox numbers may not be a good representation of relative performance. Traction is key!
mike-415
Member
Good point. My car has 20-inch wheels with 245/285 ContiSportContact 5p. That is the P85D before/after. The test P90D has staggered Michelins on 21s. Not identical, but both should have similar grip.
FYI, just got an answer to my question above:
Hello Marc,
Thank you for contacting Tesla Motors. If you purchase the Ludicrous Retrofit now and then choose to upgrade your battery at a later date, you will not have to repurchase the Ludicrous Retrofit. If you were to perform both upgrades at this time, your vehicle should perform as well as a P90D from the factory.
We hope this information helps. Please let us know if you have any questions.
Best,
So it seems that upgrading a P85D to Ludicrous AND to 90 kWh provides a platform that is equivalent in performance to a P90D - which likely means that the 85 kWh pack is the sole limiting factor that prevents a P85D from performing as well as a P90D. Interesting!
Did you get a final quote for doing both for your vehicle and mileage for doing both?
I don't understand the "mileage" part of your question, but the price for doing both is $22,500 (90kWh upgrade) + $5,000 (Ludicrous upgrade) = $27,500.
Add another $2,500 if I want to keep my old battery pack, which (according to wk057) needs to be shipped from the SC for yet another fee.
So it's clear that upgrade to 90kWh isn't worth the price UNLESS you absolutely want to match P90D performance (or range is already an issue and somehow 6% more will solve it for you).
Didn't Elon just say that current battery cost is at about $245 per kWh?? That's $22,050 for a 90 kWh battery. So basically he's ripping you off by forcing you to give back your original battery rather than allowing you to sell it privately. Plus he said once the gigafactory opens, he expects the cost to come down to $185 per kWh. These numbers are based on memory, but I think they're pretty close. Chevy just said their cost per kWh is only $145. Elon said he expects to get the cost down to $100 per kWh.
Price is absolutely not worth it and we know Tesla is not at all "reasonable" with their pricing. They either charge "what they can" because we pay it or over-price things they don't want to do or simply won't offer it. Battery upgrades are not on their list of things they "want" to offer. Just like you can't buy next generation seats for an older car, despite the money train it would generate for Tesla. No, Tesla wants you to pony up and buy a new car.
They figure if they offer you a new battery at $200 per kWh ($18,000) and let you keep yours that you could easily sell at $0.25 on the dollar (probably closer to 50%), you won't pony up for a new car.
My battery shows 13% degradation and I found another battery I could buy private party and they told me they'd void my warranty if I did. Despite the fact that they temporarily offered a battery swap program that took 90 seconds to change the battery. And there was a program in place you could pay the price of a tank of gas and just keep the battery they swapped into your car. So, they won't replace my battery under warrant and won't even let me buy another battery and pay to do it myself.
Tesla wants complete control over you and your car. As much as I love my car and couldn't drive anything else now, the company really pisses me off sometimes. They have a complete monopoly on their cars. Charge an arm and a leg for out of warranty repairs, won't let you do anything to a car you paid $100,000+ to BUY. Won't let anyone else work on the cars. Won't let you upgrade your older cars, save for a few small things like 4G cellular. Want parking sensors on an old car, they'll add that $1,500 option to an older car for $7,500., etc, etc, etc. We're stuck with the monopoly until some viable competitors come along. Once that happens, then they'll finally have to change their ways to be "REASONABLE" if they want to stay in business. Until then, they have us all by the balls and it's their way or the highway.
$10,000 for ludicrous as an option when buying new?? When they've already shown it costs less than $5,000 to retrofit an old car, that means the actual cost is likely far less. It's just a friggen fuse for goodness sake! What really pisses me off about this is that when the P85D came out, Elon specifically stated that its performance would improve via "SOFTWARE UPDATES". So where's that update?????? No, he changed his mind and made it a new package and decided to rip everyone off for another $5,000 to get the performance he promised when the P85D was released.
And since when is the cost double to order as a new option over the cost to retrofit an old car? All for 2/10ths of a second? Unless you are specifically racing your car at the track or in competition, your butt is not likely to notice the difference. But Tesla knows that most Tesla owners have money to spare and want the best of the best just because it's there and because they can afford it. So they're milking that cow for all its worth.
I couldn't justify adding the $10,000 ludicrous option for just 2/10ths of a second improvement when ordering my car. The big improvement was supposed to be that it would accelerate better above 40 mph, but that clearly didn't happen. Drove both models and both felt like an old P85 above 40 MPH. The P85D or P90D is all about the hole shot. Beyond that, there's nothing special about the extra power. If you're just looking for giggles when you stand on the accelerator (not putting the car in competition), I guarantee you, the giggles will be just the same with a P85D insane or P90D ludicrous.
Back to the original point though, Tesla has set the $22,500 battery upgrade price + $5,000 Ludicrous upgrade at a point where they know that no reasonable person will buy it. At that price, as others have said, you're better off just upgrading your entire car to a new one, likely for the same price or less.
Price is absolutely not worth it and we know Tesla is not at all "reasonable" with their pricing. They either charge "what they can" because we pay it or over-price things they don't want to do or simply won't offer it. Battery upgrades are not on their list of things they "want" to offer. Just like you can't buy next generation seats for an older car, despite the money train it would generate for Tesla. No, Tesla wants you to pony up and buy a new car.
They figure if they offer you a new battery at $200 per kWh ($18,000) and let you keep yours that you could easily sell at $0.25 on the dollar (probably closer to 50%), you won't pony up for a new car.
My battery shows 13% degradation and I found another battery I could buy private party and they told me they'd void my warranty if I did. Despite the fact that they temporarily offered a battery swap program that took 90 seconds to change the battery. And there was a program in place you could pay the price of a tank of gas and just keep the battery they swapped into your car. So, they won't replace my battery under warrant and won't even let me buy another battery and pay to do it myself.
Tesla wants complete control over you and your car. As much as I love my car and couldn't drive anything else now, the company really pisses me off sometimes. They have a complete monopoly on their cars. Charge an arm and a leg for out of warranty repairs, won't let you do anything to a car you paid $100,000+ to BUY. Won't let anyone else work on the cars. Won't let you upgrade your older cars, save for a few small things like 4G cellular. Want parking sensors on an old car, they'll add that $1,500 option to an older car for $7,500., etc, etc, etc. We're stuck with the monopoly until some viable competitors come along. Once that happens, then they'll finally have to change their ways to be "REASONABLE" if they want to stay in business. Until then, they have us all by the balls and it's their way or the highway.
$10,000 for ludicrous as an option when buying new?? When they've already shown it costs less than $5,000 to retrofit an old car, that means the actual cost is likely far less. It's just a friggen fuse for goodness sake! What really pisses me off about this is that when the P85D came out, Elon specifically stated that its performance would improve via "SOFTWARE UPDATES". So where's that update?????? No, he changed his mind and made it a new package and decided to rip everyone off for another $5,000 to get the performance he promised when the P85D was released.
And since when is the cost double to order as a new option over the cost to retrofit an old car? All for 2/10ths of a second? Unless you are specifically racing your car at the track or in competition, your butt is not likely to notice the difference. But Tesla knows that most Tesla owners have money to spare and want the best of the best just because it's there and because they can afford it. So they're milking that cow for all its worth.
I couldn't justify adding the $10,000 ludicrous option for just 2/10ths of a second improvement when ordering my car. The big improvement was supposed to be that it would accelerate better above 40 mph, but that clearly didn't happen. Drove both models and both felt like an old P85 above 40 MPH. The P85D or P90D is all about the hole shot. Beyond that, there's nothing special about the extra power. If you're just looking for giggles when you stand on the accelerator (not putting the car in competition), I guarantee you, the giggles will be just the same with a P85D insane or P90D ludicrous.
Back to the original point though, Tesla has set the $22,500 battery upgrade price + $5,000 Ludicrous upgrade at a point where they know that no reasonable person will buy it. At that price, as others have said, you're better off just upgrading your entire car to a new one, likely for the same price or less.
Cost != Price
No, the battery swap program requires you to return the pack you "borrowed" when they swapped in on your outbound journey. The $40 per swap does NOT include the price you'd have to pay if you didn't swap back to your original pack.
Agree that the battery capacity upgrade isn't worth it right now (Elon does too, by the way).
Disagree on the Ludicrous upgrade though: in my opinion, it is actually worth it (see reasoning below) and I'll bet you will find MANY current P85D believe it too. Heck, the waiting list was huge even when the price was $7,500!
The way I look at it is this: Ludicrous is a SOFTWARE option for new P90D cars (including the X), as we established that all current 90kWh packs are the same regardless of the model, hence are all technically capable of Ludicrous.
So when ordering a new P90D, the $10,000 Ludicrous option is basically turning on the software to unleash the current (1500A) that the 90kWh pack can produce. IMHO this price is, indeed, ludicrous.
For the P85D, on the other hand, upgrading to Ludicrous involves hardware work since the 85kWh packs aren't capable of producing enough current for Ludicrous (limited to 1300A).
Upgrading now for $5,000 gives you 2/10th of a second in 0-60 mph and 1/4-mile time. This isn't much by any means, could be enough for some to justify the upgrade.
HOWEVER, if all current 90kWh packs and future larger packs are also capable of Ludicrous, when I decide to upgrade my pack to a larger capacity, it will retain my Ludicrous software setting.
And guess what, it won't be just a 2/10th second improvement over the 0-60mph or, more importantly, the 1/4-mile time. Performance will be on par with new P90D models, as confirmed by Tesla in the email they sent me.
So for those who may be interested in upgrading their battery packs at a future time (say, in 3 or 4 years) to benefit from a substantial increase in range, I view the $5,000 upgrade to Ludicrous now as a safe bet for small performance improvements now - but more interestingly, large performance improvements in the future.
And as battery prices continue to drop, I am hopeful that there will a much more affordable 100kWh or higher pack upgrade in a few years. Thinking long-term, doing the Ludicrous upgrade now is making more and more sense to me.
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I follow your reasoning, but I'm not sure that I wholeheartedly agree with it because there are other variables involved.
Variables such as significant changes within the Model S in upcoming years, be they cosmetic, functional or both, and which would go beyond, perhaps even well beyond, just the battery.
In short, you may end up with a car which is effectively outdated, both from an appearance standpoint, and from a functionality standpoint, but still able to accept a 110kWh battery pack.
The stated P85D Ludicrous upgrade benefit, at $5K for 2 tenths in the 0-60 and 2 tenths in the quarter, is still a tough sell. But the writer of this post that you're reading right now has put down his deposit, and is eagerly awaiting notification as to when it will become available for install.
I'm hoping that P85D Ludicrous ends up giving us 11.1 to 11.0 quarter mile times for current P85D cars.
At that point, then I can say unequivocally that it was worth it's $5K price tag.
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Way too much truth in that post to itemize it out.
You are so right on so many points, it's difficult to tally them all up.
But I doubt that any viable competitors or a solid aftermarket are going to show up in the near future.
And with Tesla pretty much having to ability to "brick" these cars, or play with your warranty, if anyone does go aftermarket on them, it's still going to be tough sledding.
Technically, they aren't telling you that you "can't" buy and install that battery that you found via a private party. They're telling you that if you do install it, that there will be consequences and repercussions which could make it not worthwhile for you to do so..
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Problem is, other than a single test by Motor Trend which claims they got a 10.9 1/4 mile time, all other "real world" tests have proven the car is just 0.25 of second quicker (25/100ths) at 11.40. Need to note that Motor Trend uses "one foot roll out" to reflect their times. That decreases 0-60 and 1/4 mile times by approximately 3/10ths, so their figures are misleading. The chart below shows back to back to back comparisons in the same conditions that occurred at an actual race track. This is what the $10,000 ludicrous option gets you. Surely, a P85D upgraded to ludicrous with no battery upgrade will perform less than the P90DL reflected in the chart below. P85D was 11.65 1/4 mile, P90DL was 11.40 1/4 mile. A P85DL will likely fall somewhere in the middle, certainly not more than 2/10th's better.
I agree that at $5,000, it's at least somewhat in the ballpark of being reasonably priced. However the $10,000 option when buying new for what is ONLY A FRIGGEN SOFTWARE CHANGE is beyond ridiculous. If they charged the same $5,000, would still be ridiculous for what amounts to a 2 minute software update, but price to speed ratio would be somewhat reasonable.
For those ever expecting to get a 10.9 1/4 mile time at the drag strip, not sure that's ever going to happen?? Again, Elon promised that the P85D would be made faster with just software updates. He failed on that promise, instead telling P85D owners they had to spend $7,500 to get what was originally promised, then reduced to $5,000. So, don't expect the 10.9 1/4 mile time promise to hold true either.
I agree that at $5,000, it's at least somewhat in the ballpark of being reasonably priced. However the $10,000 option when buying new for what is ONLY A FRIGGEN SOFTWARE CHANGE is beyond ridiculous. If they charged the same $5,000, would still be ridiculous for what amounts to a 2 minute software update, but price to speed ratio would be somewhat reasonable.
For those ever expecting to get a 10.9 1/4 mile time at the drag strip, not sure that's ever going to happen?? Again, Elon promised that the P85D would be made faster with just software updates. He failed on that promise, instead telling P85D owners they had to spend $7,500 to get what was originally promised, then reduced to $5,000. So, don't expect the 10.9 1/4 mile time promise to hold true either.
I wouldn't keep my hopes up. As it is the P90D is having a hard time breaking the 11" quarter-mile times.
On your other points, it is definitely true that our P85Ds will be obsolete at some point. Heck, they already are due to the P90D coming out 8 months after the P85D. And my cold weather package was also out of date just 2 weeks after delivery as I just missed out on the heated steering wheel.
But you know what, the cars are all still amazing, which is why we're still here. And I see Tesla being more open about upgrades with LTE and Ludicrous. More importantly, this is the first time they're opening up to battery pack upgrades. With the X sharing the same platform, I'm confident battery upgrades will be available well into the latter years of my S ownership.
Of course this isn't for everyone. Those who are leasing or are planning to trade in to their next vehicle in a few years shouldn't consider any upgrades. But I kept my last Audi for 12 years and I'm planning on sticking with the P85D for at least a decade - especially now that we know pack upgrades are possible.
One other thing to consider....based on the information from the Sales person at Tesla store, Ludicrous requires battery pre-conditioning to reach "max battery power" while insane mode does not. Without the preconditioning, he indicated both are very close to each other in performance. Therefore, you have to plan ahead if you want to do a full Ludicrous launch. Otherwise, for the spur of the moment launches that are not pre-meditated, you effectively have a P90D with Insane Mode. Again, this information was provided by the sales person at the Tesla store. Haven't seen any back to back tests yet of a P90DL launched with and without max battery power.
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