the problem is the approach (ridiculous RTA fees) and amount of time it will take ST to get this stuff done. It will be obsolete by the time it’s done.
Initiative 976
- Thread starter N8DGR8
- Start date
the problem is the approach (ridiculous RTA fees) and amount of time it will take ST to get this stuff done. It will be obsolete by the time it’s done.
PWlakewood
Active Member
Have you even read the st3 timeline for completion? I've lived here for over 40 years and I have seen this place expand and grow and no amount of mass transit expansion, rideshare, road improvements are going help reduce the number of cars on our roadways. The majority of people commute into work from outside the areas that would benefit from some of these projects. I'm one of those drivers. No options for my commute or my wife's commute. We do however carpool most of the week so at least we have that option but most people dont and drive alone. That behavior wont suddenly change especially when the plans in place in no way benefit someone who has no option other than drive alone.
I'm all for maintenance and road improvements but having a system in place that is misleading and using the wrong data to calculate our license fees is absurd and ridiculous. As @Kuhz pointed out above his license fees for his 2017 MS is over 1000 bucks. How does any of that make any sense to even the supporters of the no vote on the initiative?
PWlakewood
Active Member
@Araman0
You must like throwing money away. They admitted in the court proceedings that the fee calculations were incorrect and that we were being over taxed.
You must like throwing money away. They admitted in the court proceedings that the fee calculations were incorrect and that we were being over taxed.
Fixing the problem is important, but as usual timmy's solution to a very complicated problem is brute force blunt object approach. The problems created are much worse, there are a lot of things funded other than Puget sound mass transit.
A lot of people disagree (and sometimes straight out hate) Tim but they’re will still vote yes because they’re tired of the scam. My prediction is this initiative will pass, regardless of what happens afterwards. And that should be a sign that even in our very left leaning state, people are starting to pay attention when they get hit in a pocket, especially unfairly. I have no sympathy for the morons who voted yes on ST3 in the first place (seems to be plenty here) based on the deceptive and rosy ads.
PWlakewood
Active Member
There is so much money in the coffers that sound transit can tap into. Fixing what is broken is what tim eyman is about. He sees the scam and misleading deceptive practices and goes straight for the jugular and obviously that is what is needed after decades of lieing and stealing by the various agencies in Washington state.
One of the highest if not highest gas tax in the country, one of the highest tax on vehicle licenses in the country based on incorrect calculations
One of the only things we have in wa state that is inexpensive is electricity. Now they want to add a toll for every road in the state and keep all the current taxes we pay. How in the hell is that ok with anyone who lives here, unless of course you dont have a problem just throwing away your hard earned.
If tim eyman wasn't around to point these things out do you think your elected officials would? Not a chance in hell.
I'm not so sure.
I agree the previous initiative was purposely misleading. They could have easily been more straight forwards by how much it was going to go up. Plus there are numerous other issues like it not being reflective of the true value of the vehicle.
So it's not like I'm not irked by it, but I don't believe in replacing one bad initiative with an equally bad initiative that's simply the opposite.
We can't continue to cycle between two extremes.
We have to get things done.
Robo taxis are not going to save us any time soon. They won't solve the traffic problem because they'll just add more traffic just like Uber has done. We need to invest in light rail as it's a proven way to move significant numbers of people quickly and efficiently.
Voting for a Tim Eyman initiative is like shooting yourself in the foot. Even when you make the decision to fire the gun ends up jamming. The Browns have a better chance at winning the Super Bowl then anything for Eyman actually having much staying power.
Tim Eyman - Ballotpedia
By voting for an initiative that's equally if not more misleading on the impact it will have?
How can I tell its misleading? Because of the connection to the Light rail. Everyone assumes it's only going to hurt the light rail project. But, that isn't true.
The Times recommends: Reject car tabs Initiative 976 and its devastating effects
Now keep in mind this is the same editorial board that recommended against ST3 in the first place.
The Times recommends: Reject Sound Transit 3 and demand a better plan
If we followed what the Times recommended in the first place we wouldn't be in this mess.
Eyman is just leveraging dislike of ST3 for his own agenda.
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PWlakewood
Active Member
How is it more misleading? I've read it several times and it's pretty clear what it would do.
Mbrockus
Member
Either way we lose. If it passes all the consumers of the tax money will fall to the ground in agony like a soccer player that was lightly brushed. You'll see ads how you've killed Seattle (its already dead) and the guilt and shaming will continue. I'm sure that would lead policy makers to link this issue to the homeless issue and why the Mariners suck.
If it doesn't pass then the status quo remains and you'll still be paying tax on your EV based on its sticker price for the next 10 years. They will claim to address the issues raised during the debates (they won't) and in 6 months, we will all forget about this debate until our next tab fee arrives. We will then write a strongly worded letter to the governor and then forget about it 1 month later...
Pinch those noses and open wide as both doses go down like castor oil.
If it doesn't pass then the status quo remains and you'll still be paying tax on your EV based on its sticker price for the next 10 years. They will claim to address the issues raised during the debates (they won't) and in 6 months, we will all forget about this debate until our next tab fee arrives. We will then write a strongly worded letter to the governor and then forget about it 1 month later...
Pinch those noses and open wide as both doses go down like castor oil.
Do you have any data to support this assertion? I am skeptical.
PWlakewood
Active Member
If you look at where these major projects are happening and look at population density you will see for yourself. I've lived here almost all my life and my commute has always been at least 50 miles or more per day. The longest commute I had was 120 miles per day which meant sitting in traffic for almost 5 hours per day.
https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article158605919.html
U.S. Census reveals Washington State’s mega-commutes
Seattle’s mega-commuters: We spend more time than ever traveling to work
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
I saw tremendous amounts of money wasted by San Diego in their light rail/trolly system. It is lightly used for commerce commuting, but only carries significant volume when taking people to football games (stadium also owned by the city). Football team left, and now the trolley has turned into folly. Almost no one uses them to commute to work. They even do not go to the airports where they at least would be usefull for taking tourists and business travelers into the city.
Electric busses are far more adaptable and efficient than light rail. They don't require tearing up roads to install rail and the same roads can be used by cars/trucks and busses.
The real advance is when cities will ban ICE vehicles from their city centers, and turn major shopping streets into pedestrian malls. The quality of life for citizens goes up dramatically, as those places become areas for people to safely mingle, enjoy concerts and a coffee in the parks.
Light rail is horrible. Take a ride on the BART is SanFrancisco to see how it transports bums around the city. Super uncomfortable for commuters to endure the filth just outside (and often inside) the stations. Need to trip over the bums (homeless if you prefer) step around there feces and be careful to not step on their mass of discarded hypodermic needles. Those light rail cars are loud as hell. They screech and lurch around ever curve.
Please, if you think light rail is something you might like, just take a ride on any of them in the US. Most are horrible. Our US Senate has their own personal light rail system for use going to the capitol, but it is not available for any private citizens to use. We are blocked form using the very system we paid for in our taxes...Elite indeed.
The unions funnel tremendous amounts of $ to get elected official elected. Those same officials then foist all these tremendously expensive light rail systems on their citizens...all with equally tremendous amounts of borrowed money. Those loans are then secured by laws passed to force the same citizens to pay twice for the constructions with their ever increasing taxes.
I remember when Seattle was one of the most beautiful and welcoming places to live. A paradise lost by overbearing governments.
Keep Seattle weird...but not bankrupt.
Tesla has a better idea with clean and quiet automatous vehicles, delivering people inexpensively from place to place in peace and safety. They will be available as a hailing system.
Much better for your politicians to spend your money on Boring company tunnels and Hyperloop transportation with electric automatic cars for last miles transport. Cleaner, cheaper and much more pleasant.
Electric busses are far more adaptable and efficient than light rail. They don't require tearing up roads to install rail and the same roads can be used by cars/trucks and busses.
The real advance is when cities will ban ICE vehicles from their city centers, and turn major shopping streets into pedestrian malls. The quality of life for citizens goes up dramatically, as those places become areas for people to safely mingle, enjoy concerts and a coffee in the parks.
Light rail is horrible. Take a ride on the BART is SanFrancisco to see how it transports bums around the city. Super uncomfortable for commuters to endure the filth just outside (and often inside) the stations. Need to trip over the bums (homeless if you prefer) step around there feces and be careful to not step on their mass of discarded hypodermic needles. Those light rail cars are loud as hell. They screech and lurch around ever curve.
Please, if you think light rail is something you might like, just take a ride on any of them in the US. Most are horrible. Our US Senate has their own personal light rail system for use going to the capitol, but it is not available for any private citizens to use. We are blocked form using the very system we paid for in our taxes...Elite indeed.
The unions funnel tremendous amounts of $ to get elected official elected. Those same officials then foist all these tremendously expensive light rail systems on their citizens...all with equally tremendous amounts of borrowed money. Those loans are then secured by laws passed to force the same citizens to pay twice for the constructions with their ever increasing taxes.
I remember when Seattle was one of the most beautiful and welcoming places to live. A paradise lost by overbearing governments.
Keep Seattle weird...but not bankrupt.
Tesla has a better idea with clean and quiet automatous vehicles, delivering people inexpensively from place to place in peace and safety. They will be available as a hailing system.
Much better for your politicians to spend your money on Boring company tunnels and Hyperloop transportation with electric automatic cars for last miles transport. Cleaner, cheaper and much more pleasant.
One major misconception of light rail is “they can move a lot of people fast”. A light rail is nothing close to the metro systems used in NYC/Tokyo/Hongkong. Look at our light rail cars, they are not much bigger than rapid ride buses. Then look at the gap they run, not even close to buses. I would say running buses on express/HOV lanes can move people across the lake much faster than light rail.
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I agree about the light rail being a very crappy ROI. Just makes it easier for the bums and drug addicts to move their stolen merchandise around to meet buyers off OfferUp 
im.thatoneguy
Member
Your theories are great and all well 'reasoned' but meanwhile the light rail currently moved 12.5 million rides in the first 2 quarters. That's 80k weekday avg boarding and we haven't even seen Northgate, University District or the east side start yet. The university stadium station is already one of the busiest stations, just ahead of capitol hill. University Av is going to bring in substantially more traffic. And link has new trains coming online that are larger and, as demand increases, they can run longer trains more frequently. There aren't needles everywhere, it's not the Bart, it's clean and relatively fast.
And even with ST3 RTA fees we still don't pay what it costs to maintain our roads.
And the stadium is the worst performing station in the network Btw so even if the sounders and Seahawks packed up and left Link would still be fine.
PS I just got back from riding the Tokyo Metro for a week. Link is just as crowded as any ride I took in Tokyo.
And even with ST3 RTA fees we still don't pay what it costs to maintain our roads.
And the stadium is the worst performing station in the network Btw so even if the sounders and Seahawks packed up and left Link would still be fine.
PS I just got back from riding the Tokyo Metro for a week. Link is just as crowded as any ride I took in Tokyo.
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A lot of people in U-District, Cap Hill, and other immediate DT areas don’t even own cars so yes lightrail is convenient for them. Hence why it was approved overwhelmingly in Seattle but barely in Snohomish county and rejected in Pierce. Ridership will be lower the further it gets built out. Except it’ll get a lot more expensive.
Btw ST3 RTA taxes will not be used for road maintenance. Our huge Gas taxes/EV fees are for that. RTA is to fill up Sound Transit coffers.
Btw ST3 RTA taxes will not be used for road maintenance. Our huge Gas taxes/EV fees are for that. RTA is to fill up Sound Transit coffers.
I ride our Link system occasionally, and it is full of people, standing room only at times, every time I've ridden it. This is the case on or off peak commuting hours. And right now it's just a single short line serving a limited portion of the region. Once the system is expanded, I have no doubt that the train cars will become even more packed as more neighborhoods and job centers are served by the system.
Light rail, as implemented in our region, mostly bypasses all the traffic on the highways and uses it's own right-of-way to traverse geographic boundaries (like the Montlake Cut) so it actually moves people quite a bit faster than electric buses mixed in with traffic would be able to do. In our region (maybe not the same in San Diego or other places that are built differently) it's already in invaluable resource and I can't imagine how much more clogged our roadways would be with drivers without the Link.
Light rail, as implemented in our region, mostly bypasses all the traffic on the highways and uses it's own right-of-way to traverse geographic boundaries (like the Montlake Cut) so it actually moves people quite a bit faster than electric buses mixed in with traffic would be able to do. In our region (maybe not the same in San Diego or other places that are built differently) it's already in invaluable resource and I can't imagine how much more clogged our roadways would be with drivers without the Link.
You can say the same thing about any kind of public transit.
A lot of that has to do with the problems that exist in a given city, and their transit authority. If you have a huge homeless problem and huge drug problem then of course they're going to spill over to public transit. Hence your comment about trying it in the US because obviously you know outside of the US the story is entirely different.
The most experience I have is with Portland Max system. Over the course of years I've seen times where it's really clean, and times where it seemed like the only purpose of it was to transport bums in loop. But, then they step up enforcement and its good again.
I don't think we can blame light rail for problems within the city.
As to buses being more efficient that's entirely incorrect. The problem is traffic, and the fact that what makes them easy/cheaper to implement is that they run over the same roads as other cars/trucks. That makes it an unreliable form of transportation.
Obviously autonomous buses/cars with their own dedicated roads would be idea, but I don't see happening anytime within the next 50 years.
Apparently the only thing we agree on is the need to ban cars from city centers. In places that have banned cars I can walk from point A to point B faster than it would have otherwise taken me by car. Assuming a radius of around 1 mile in a densely packed area.
We really need to rethink how people get around in city centers, and outskirts of the city. Things like ride shares, shared bikes, scooters, e-bikes are rapidly changing how people get around.
The biggest problem with the Light Rail system in Seattle, and in Portland is they run at times on surface streets. Which means occasionally some idiot driver will crash into one.
From a scale size I don't see any issues as you can scale them up as needed, and run them more often. Plus they can be easily automated.
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