Inside Tesla: 8/02/12 (New blog from George B)

[bonnie]

Here's an idea... My don't we make a new subforum "Dear Tesla", "Complaints/Suggestions" or something like that?
That would certainly keep down the noise on the main Model S forum. Bonnie, what do you think?

Well I appreciate the idea (and have considered) - it won't stop the other threads from continuing to go negative.

I think all this fussing will stop when cars start getting delivered. As someone sent me in a pm earlier this morning, "The longest part of a train ride is the last 15 minutes." People are anxious. Hopefully this mood will right itself with time and this forum will get back to what it was before -- a great place to share tips, experience, etc.

 

[brianman]

Everyone likes to refer to themselves as 'early adopters'

Bonnie, didn't we already talk about the word "everyone"?

 

[bonnie]

Hahaha! We did!

Dammit. Go away, brianman.

 

[Beavis]

Everyone has a right to express their opinion but not everyone has chosen to exercise that right in a positive way. I would encourage everyone to be respectful. Don't jump to conclusions. Be patient, have the facts before reacting, and resist the temptation to repeatedly posts about the same issue.

 

[brianman]

I hesitate to weigh in, because this is such a charged subject. Nonetheless, here I go...

Some tactics for dealing with drama:
1. Threads and posts of the form "OMG, the sky is falling; I am/will cancel my reservation" can be moved to a new "Drama over Model S" thread in some sub-forum.
2. Threads and posts of the form "Model S & Tesla is the greatest, anybody saying otherwise is the devil" can be moved to a new "Model S lovers" thread in some sub-forum.
3. Threads and posts with honest and focused critique or discussion of features of the Model S and its delivery schedule should remain in place. Such posts are the primary reason I read this forum. I want to know what I'm getting, warts and all.
4. Threads that are between 3 and 1 can be retitled to 3 as appropriate.

Regarding the "class warfare" bend of the discussion...
This is a dangerous topic and politically charged. I think what some were trying to get across is that having means enables one to take more risk -- i.e. you can only leverage your debt so far if you don't have any backing collateral. Some said more than that, intentionally or not, and that's where the drama and hurt feelings unfolded further.

Regarding urgency and tone...
I dislike the tactic "just asking questions", but sometimes it's informative to trigger introspection. Bonnie, if you retained your S reservation (perhaps X wasn't announced or whatever) and your Roadster was having trouble (like it needed repairs before September to be drivable) would your perspective change somewhat on "just stop changing stuff and build the car I expected a year ago"?

 

[kevincwelch]

Regarding the "class warfare" bend of the discussion...
This is a dangerous topic and politically charged. I think what some were trying to get across is that having means enables one to take more risk -- i.e. you can only leverage your debt so far if you don't have any backing collateral. Some said more than that, intentionally or not, and that's where the drama and hurt feelings unfolded further.

I admit that fueling the "class warfare" issue was not smart. So, sorry for that.

I still posit that having money enables some to more readily become early adopters because they have the capability of accepting losses in risky situations. Therefore, I believe having wealth makes being an early adopter easier. Not having wealth doesn't mean you can't take risks,but I believe the risks are typically less substantial and the recovery from loss harder.

 

[Krugerrand]

The natives are restless. you have to expect this from people who are taking a risk on the Model S and are paying 2-4 times the amount on a car...myself included. The reaction is valid, IMHO.

You might want a different perspective...you might not, but I'm feeling generous today. :wink: Not downplaying the importance or the risk associated with reservationists and the monetary (significant for some, not so much for others) investment because without them, without you, there'd be no opportunity for Roadster, Model S, Model X, GenIII and everything that comes of it, can come of it...

But let me assure you, there are people involved (at Tesla) who have risked, who are risking, a whole lot more than paper money and are working their butts off in the proverbial pressure cooker.

We need to be in this together. There are so many out there that want to see Tesla fail, are betting on Tesla to fail. It can't happen for the sake of all of us. Bigger picture, people, bigger picture.

 

[bonnie]

Bonnie, if you retained your S reservation (perhaps X wasn't announced or whatever) and your Roadster was having trouble (like it needed repairs before September to be drivable) would your perspective change somewhat on "just stop changing stuff and build the car I expected a year ago"?

So a little history. The short version. (Bear with me, it's not as complicated as it looks at first glance...)

I bought my Roadster, fell in love with driving electric, was repeatedly blown away by Tesla customer service, but had no intention of going 100% electric. Then I took a roadtrip last summer to Newport Beach & realized my lingering range anxiety was unfounded.

I put $5k down to reserve a Model S. But from the first, I've said 'it's either (Roadster+Model X) or (Model S+Model X)' as the combo in my garage. Because (Roadster+Model S) just didn't fit my lifestyle as well. The X was introduced, I couldn't bear to let go of the Roadster, so I moved my reservation. That is 100% of what was behind moving the reservation. I always planned to put a deposit down on the Model X - the only question was 'do I sell the Roadster and replace with a Model S'? And I can't do it.

As far as the question of 'would my perspective change if I'd experienced trouble?'. Easy response here. My Roadster did have some trouble. PEM Failure Post 10. It didn't change my perspective. I'm happy getting Sig #3.

 

[kevincwelch]

You might want a different perspective...you might not, but I'm feeling generous today. :wink: But let me assure you, there are people involved (at Tesla) who have risked, who are risking, a whole lot more than paper money and are working their butts off in the proverbial pressure cooker.

You're absolutely right, and, yes, it is important to recognize this as you've pointed out.

I'm less concerned about Tesla failing than I am about the American (Europe seems more proactive in this area) public not adopting EV in general. Tesla will be successful. It is apparent that they have a track record for keeping in touch with their customers, and this is what separates them. I just hope they maintain that without the radio silence and with better explanations of warranty, etc.

I'm like a snowball rolling down the hill some times...

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm like a snowball rolling down the hill some times...

It happens, especially if you've been pushed. :biggrin:

 

[bonnie]

You might want a different perspective...you might not, but I'm feeling generous today. :wink: Not downplaying the importance or the risk associated with reservationists and the monetary (significant for some, not so much for others) investment because without them, without you, there'd be no opportunity for Roadster, Model S, Model X, GenIII and everything that comes of it, can come of it...

But let me assure you, there are people involved (at Tesla) who have risked, who are risking, a whole lot more than paper money and are working their butts off in the proverbial pressure cooker.

We need to be in this together. There are so many out there that want to see Tesla fail, are betting on Tesla to fail. It can't happen for the sake of all of us. Bigger picture, people, bigger picture.

Love this post. Thanks.

 

[Super Gizmo]

I think you may be being a little harsh on people's legitimate criticisms of Tesla, and also only hearing the loudest voices of dissent. We've seen this a couple of times in the past where an issue was raised on these forums in such a way that Tesla, which does a great job of listening to its customers, felt compelled to respond and even change direction in some way. Charging in Europe is an example of this, and actually I think we can attribute the "millimeters" of headroom in the back seat that they're trying to get from the new light fixture to this as well (many passengers on test drives commented on the headroom in the negative).

I give kudos to those who raise these issues in a respectful and persuasive way, and to Tesla for responding when they recongize a legitimate issue has been raised and responding accordingly. The latest brouhaha involving the removal of the vanity mirror lights and 2nd row lights may have been a bit overwrought, but Tesla pretty quickly understood the issue and felt it legitimate enough (again) to comment here and in a blog post so that everyone understood why those two items had been removed from the specs page.

I couldn't be more excited that my 3.5 year wait for this car is almost up, and nothing that has been brought up recently would make me even consider for a nanosecond canceling my car, but that doesn't mean that if there are drawbacks or negatives about the car they shouldn't be brought up. From my perspective, I'm a "true believer" and fully expect to love this car forever. But I want more than a cool car for myself -- I want Tesla to be wildly successful and change the automotive industry globally, and that means I want the car to be able to appeal to people who don't really care about Tesla, or EVs, the way I do, and that means that every issue that might possibly be a drawback should be raised, IMHO. Better now than after production is in full steam. This is especially true because, except for a few limited exceptions, the criticisms that are raised on these forums are done so in a pretty respectful manner (at least for the internet), are as informed opinions as they can be under the circumstances, and mostly come for a good place of tryin to help Tesla and improve the car itself.

I wholly agree with you. Very well put.

 

[brianman]

@Bonnie - My question was regarding urgency. Your move from Model S reservation to Model X demonstrates your willingness to have a longer timeline before you get your vehicle, and with that timeline comes more room for Tesla to work out the kinks to your liking. More than a few don't have the willingness to extend the timeline because they need a vehicle acquisition / replacement. Others no longer have the ability to "defer" to X because they've already locked in a non-refundable deposit on the S. Both of these S reservation holders have a vested interest in the S remaining the vehicle that they need and want, and have little control over whether Tesla lives up to that. These forums offer an outlet that is also sometimes an input to the Tesla decision engine.

 

[bonnie]

@Bonnie - My question was regarding urgency. Your move from Model S reservation to Model X demonstrates your willingness to have a longer timeline before you get your vehicle, and with that timeline comes more room for Tesla to work out the kinks to your liking. More than a few don't have the willingness to extend the timeline because they need a vehicle acquisition / replacement. Others no longer have the ability to "defer" to X because they've already locked in a non-refundable deposit on the S. Both of these S reservation holders have a vested interest in the S remaining the vehicle that they need and want, and have little control over whether Tesla lives up to that. These forums offer an outlet that is also sometimes an input to the Tesla decision engine.

I got that. I was just trying to explain that my reservation movement had nothing to do with working out kinks to my liking. It never entered into my thought process.

If it is time to lock in on my Model X and I have outstanding unanswered questions that are a go/no go point, of course I'd defer. That would only be the sensible thing to do. I've never questioned for deciding to wait til they had all the info. My frustration lately has been over the large number of people who want detailed answers and don't want to wait or recognize where this car is in the introduction process.

(I have a nice 2010 Prius for sale with low mileage ...)

 

[kevincwelch]

My frustration lately has been over the large number of people who want detailed answers and don't want to wait or recognize where this car is in the introduction process.

Bonnie, I think that's fine. I really do, and I see your point.

Maybe you and I have different (obviously) definitions of "introduction." As far as I am concerned, the car is already introduced. There should be a level of completeness, however, and if there are changes, I hope it would be with clear communication to the customers with options to back out, defer or decline.

 

[W8MM]

I'm a little disturbed by the sentiment that early adopters are so used to risks that they have low expectations or have no right to be upset by surprises.

I, too, took a leap off the high board of faith when we ordered our Roadster 1.5. But we didn't do it blind. We actually went to the factory in 2007 to size up the whole operation. We came away with a good feeling for the people involved and were satisfied that we could trust Tesla to do what they said they would. We're generally quite satisfied with the outcome of that decision.

The thorn in our paw at this time is being requested to firm up our Model S configuration while some details of choices are invisible to us. In particular, the panoramic roof sunshade design is a complete mystery. We can only get barely informed (and contradictory) explanations about the material type and color/finish of the sunshade. Is it the same color as the head liner? Is is solid or perforated? My wife would rather order a solid roof if these questions can't be answered before our configuration window expires. But, in total contravention to other cars' headroom without a sunroof, the hard top actually costs headroom.

This isn't the same kind of uncertainty as how long the battery pack might last or will Tesla be in business 10 years from now. Those risks have been absorbed already. We are early adopters.

The Model S configuration dilemma is not one of early adopter risk. It's just plain annoying that one can't know what one is ordering when it's do or die time. If Tesla can't make up its mind about what, exactly, we are ordering, why is that all on the customers' risk tolerance? Seems a bridge too far to me.

 

[Tommy]

Ok, bringing this back to the thread topic; in the blog post was a picture of a Model S being assembled. Several items in the photo struck me as unique to Tesla:

The car riding on a cart rather than on an overhead conveyor system.
The doors riding along with the car vs on a separate parallel line.
The very clean and well light work environment.
The workers all wearing Tesla apparel; the German's tend do do this as well though much more formal attire.
A team approach to building the car vs 1-2 workers working on the car at a time as the car travels down the assembly line.

Anyone see anything else?

 

[brianman]

@Tommy - It's very "newspapery": black, white, and re(a)d.

A non-signature paint color would look out of place, for example.

 

[kevincwelch]

There's obviously a lot of pride in their craftsmanship. Not knowing how assembly lines really work, but the Tesla line seems pleasantly brighter and more cheery than other auto lines I have seen.

Having things move along with the car does add to the sense of keeping things together.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Krugerrand]

The thorn in our paw at this time is being requested to firm up our Model S configuration while some details of choices are invisible to us. In particular, the panoramic roof sunshade design is a complete mystery. We can only get barely informed (and contradictory) explanations about the material type and color/finish of the sunshade. Is it the same color as the head liner? Is is solid or perforated? My wife would rather order a solid roof if these questions can't be answered before our configuration window expires. But, in total contravention to other cars' headroom without a sunroof, the hard top actually costs headroom.

The Model S configuration dilemma is not one of early adopter risk. It's just plain annoying that one can't know what one is ordering when it's do or die time. If Tesla can't make up its mind about what, exactly, we are ordering, why is that all on the customers' risk tolerance? Seems a bridge too far to me.

And so it's a valid concern, such that an e-mail stating it as you've stated it here should be going to Tesla, not us, not on the Internet. Then further explained that a non-answer will have to unfortuntely be met with a reservation cancellation.

1. State issue
2. State various outcomes
3. Follow through according to result

When I have a problem with a company or a product, I always begin with communicating with them first and specifically. Give them a chance to rectify the issue/satisfy me, their customer. And of course, sometimes, it takes persistance on my part and a couple of phone calls to find the right person, who actually has the authority to make it right and make me a happy, satisfied customer. It would only be as a last and final resort, where I felt I was so deliberately cheated/wronged that I would go 'public'. I think that's only fair.

It seems that most here are eloquent enough to express their thoughts and concerns, but seem oblivious to how to go about doing it with the actually people/company that can do something about it. I don't get it.