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(Install not to code) Project: Save $1500

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Levi, May 12, 2015.

  1. Levi

    Levi Member

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    #1 Levi, May 12, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
    ** WARNING ** This is NOT a DIY. I am not held responsible for any work done with the direction, inspiration, formulation, or otherwise instruction derived by any party from this post.
    I am not liable for any damage this potential action may cause others who may imitate my work. I am NOT a licensed electrician, and have NOT installed this up to code.
    Furthermore, no one in this forum is a licensed electrician, for the purpose of this forum. And even if someone claims to be one, there is no absolute way of proving such, as this site is not for the intended purpose of providing electrical services and/advise. For information on your code requirements, and NEC, check your local municipal/county code and regulations. And always consult/have an electrician, to do professional grade electrical work. ** WARNING **


    So, I did it. Took the plunge, fathered up every ounce of guts and strength and IQ, and installed the HPWC myself. No help from anyone at all. Just a few tips here and there.

    One of the proudest moments of my life.

    Actually, the morning after, when my house wasn't burned down was the proud moment.

    Good luck to all you DIYers.

    P.S. If you'd like me to install it for you, let me know, I'll charge you JUST as much as a professional. Gotta make some money off of this new-found knowledge and skill

    Levi DSC_0149.JPG DSC_0150.JPG DSC_0151.JPG DSC_0152.JPG DSC_0153.JPG
     
  2. InternetDude

    InternetDude Member

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    OMNG, tell me you at least got a homeowner permit and inspection!
     
  3. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Looks like you ran bare copper and THHN wire inside drywall without conduit? I'm not an electrician but I'm pretty sure that isn't code. Either encase THHN wire in a conduit, or use romex.
     
  4. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    Very much against code. Individual conductors are required to be in a raceway / conduit the full length of the run.

    What size conductors are you using? Those look considerably smaller than #3.
     
  5. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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    Will be interesting to see how things are going after a few years.
     
  6. Levi

    Levi Member

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    Really? Would I be posting on here if I had?....let's just say that if my anything goes wrong because of code, I have WAY more important things to worry about than a fine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    No, that first picture was only the first test to make sure that my panel didn't blow up and that everything was in order before cleaning up. I got conduit running.

    - - - Updated - - -

    No, that's probably the picture. That is exactly #3. And as I said above, they are run in a conduit. I just didn't take a picture after I cleaned up, and properly lengthened it, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Fortunately, I do NOT plan on being in this house for a "few years". I'm buying a new property at the end of the year, and I'll be renting this one. So, I'll be taking all my crap with me, and reinstalling in a much better, newer environment, with proper permits and code.
     
  7. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Well good, but if posting pictures of a DIY install, then I'd suggest posting ones with the correct wiring (ie. Conduit), or at the very least, picture captions explaining what you are posting. Otherwise, other DIYers might learn the wrong thing from the pictures. Congrats, though.
     
  8. InternetDude

    InternetDude Member

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    After seeing the first photo I was thinking that this was a joke thread. For starters if a fire starts, fire investigators will easily be able to determine the cause. If you did not get a permit and have it inspected/approved, you have no insurance coverage for the house or the car if something bad happens.

    For the record I DIY'd my HPWC. Pulled a permit, got it to code, etc.
     
  9. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    Good to hear that.

    Just for future reference, the raceway must be constructed end-to-end before you pull conductors through it (so you don't cut the insulation on sharp box edges, etc.) Obviously, inspectors can't catch you assembling conduit as you move along, and it's not so much an issue for these short raceways, but in longer ones it makes sure the conduit doesn't fall apart.

    How'd you make the 90 deg turn behind the HPWC?
     
  10. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    ...such as your insurance company refusing to pay out for a total loss of your house. Even if the fire wasn't started by an electrical issue.
     
  11. polything

    polything Member

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    i would take this post down if anything happens you don't want this info floating around the net for insurance company to find.
     
  12. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    Levi, just take a picture of your setup running safely through conduit to appease the masses. ;)
    If it's done correctly, I really don't understand people freaking out about others doing their own work. However, if your municipality requires permits and/or inspections for DIY, then do it.

    I've done four 14-50 installs now and every one of them runs cooler than the UMC at 40A. The key is properly sized wire and properly torqued wire lugs. In this case with the OP's HPWC, it sounds like he already has run conduit for it.
     
  13. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I don't have an issue with DIY work, as long as the DIY'er is aware of the important little things -- bushing requirements on conduit connectors, or ensuring you're not using a plumbing elbow for 90 deg turns instead of JB's (required to be accessible) or sweeps (which require wall space), or the requirement that your raceway be fully assembled and connected before you pull conductors through (to avoid cutting insulation on sharp box edges).
     
  14. Levi

    Levi Member

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    Ahh, yes. I'm sorry. I should have specified that in the thread.
    By the way, San Diego!! 619!.....
    I'm coming back in 2 weeks. Oh god, I miss it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, absolutely.
    Look, I knew what I was getting into when I decided to it myself. No need to grill me on a supposed stupidity of my actions. I know exactly what I'm to lose if something does go wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well, as I said before, I'm not trying to hide anything. I've done Fire Code, Hazmat Code, etc. It won't take a deep investigation into my personal posts on a Tesla forum to determine that this was NOT done up to code and not by a professional, without any permits.
    It's pretty black and white. You either did it according to code, or not.

    Hiding this post does not hide the fact that it IS my fault if my house burns down, and it would be pretty evident given anyone who knows anything about Fire Code and NEC.

    Good luck to me hoping that my house doesn't burn down, I guess. Aside from that, keep on truckin', eh?
     
  15. Rockster

    Rockster Active Member

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    I compromised: At the same time the electrician installed my 14-50 outlet, I had him install the 100 amp breaker and run Cu to a specific point on the garage wall and cap it off for a possible future HPWC. Three months later I bought an HPWC, uncapped the thick-ass Cu wire, connected the HPWC, and turned the breaker on.
     
  16. Levi

    Levi Member

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    Yeah, I did my previous NEMA 14-50. And same thing, it ran cooler than anything else, because I did it right.
    I didn't take a picture of the finished product, and I can't until I reopen the panel, because I have to install the 100amp breaker.
    I have to use a 50amp right now because my line company has to change the transformer. This area and the house is old, and my lines are barely able to supply the 50(40amps) 10KWh to charge my car. But it's their fault, because they don't want to spend the time and cash to update their stuff. So, eventually, when everyone in the area catches up to technological needs of today, they'll have a huge deficit to work with. Hey, not my fault.

    But when I do install the 100 amp breaker I'll take pics and try to calm everyone's nerves down.

    IF it's any consolation, it's been 5 days, and my house is still intact, no burnt, and no smoke anywhere, no sparks, no arcing, etc. So, I must have not done it THAT wrong.

    P.S. I have edited the title of the topic and put a disclaimer at the top. Hopefully it'll help. Any questions or comments, feel free. Thanks.

    -Levi


    - - - Updated - - -

    OHHH. BY THE WAY.

    On the second picture, that conduit under my panel is NOT for the HPWC. That's for my other Nema 14-50 plug.

    I know it looked funny, like, "why would you bring the line out, with conduit, then back in??"

    lol
     
  17. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    #17 wk057, May 13, 2015
    Last edited: May 13, 2015
    So somehow you know the professional license status of everyone on the forum? Sounds rather ridiculous, especially when I'm 100% certain there is at least one licensed electrician on this forum.......

    Aside from that nonsense, and at the risk of sounding like one of the forum's resident NEC police as per usual, I'll just echo some already voiced concerns and add some others.

    Basically your photos show that you've run wires without conduit, which is against code (for good reason). You say in later posts that it is in conduit... but I don't see conduit in any photos and there are photos with the wire in place without it, which seems pretty strange. If it were truly for a test you could have done this without running the wire in the wall.

    Additionally, that looks like a 2x4 studded wall from the photo. The minimum bend radius (off the top of my head) for 1" conduit (the minimum size allowed for two #3 and a #8 ground) is ~6"... which isn't happening in a 2x4 wall. You also can't put a conduit body inside the wall to make the turn, either, since it needs to be accessible. Since you're feeding from the back I don't know how you did this with conduit.

    There is also a NM cable (looks like 8/3 maybe?) coming up into your panel though a knockout without any bushing or protection.

    Basically, there is a lot wrong here from a code perspective and no inspector would ever approve any of this. It is unsafe and should not be operated as stands.

    Beyond that, one of the first things a home inspector will do when you're trying to sell a home is pull the cover off of electrical panels and look for obvious violations. So, if this is your place and you plan on selling it you'll be paying to bring this stuff up to code anyway eventually, assuming the place is still standing by then. If it's not your place I question the ethics of doing illegal work on someone else's electrical panel... but that's another topic. You say you'll be renting the place after removing these things. I hope there is not similar work done elsewhere, for your future renters' sake.

    I personally have no issue with DIY to save on installation costs. However there are no shortcuts to getting it done *properly*. I don't want someone seeing this thread and thinking, "Wow, I can save $1500 just following these photos and this advice," then have their place burn to the ground next year. You can save money and do it right, if you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, you do not. That said, you probably should not be posting such things, even with a disclaimer, as if you did.

    TLDR version:
    This is an illegal install. PLEASE DO NOT follow this example.

    Mods: While I think most people have sense enough to not follow this thread as an example of how to do this, it may be worth noting in the rather vague title of the thread something along those lines perhaps indicating that the install shown is not to code, especially since the tag line is about saving $1500.

    - - - Updated - - -

    After rereading my post above, I just want to make things a little more clear.

    I may sound like a hard ass here, and frankly that's what's needed. All too often I see posts like this with poor workmanship and code violations pop up around here on this forum (one of the only I frequent).

    Eventually, someone's house is going to burn and/or someone is going to get hurt or worse as a result. The NEC exists for a reason. I reply and point out these issues because the last thing I want is for someone to be harmed because of something like this that could easily had been avoided if the job was done properly. Obviously I can't respond to everything in the world that is improperly wired, but when I see it here I can and will.

    In this particular case doing it properly would quite possibly have been less work than was done to do it incorrectly, especially with respect to the referenced NEMA 14-50 installation.

    Basically there isn't any real excuse for this kind of stuff. If you're going to throw safety out the window and do these things there probably is nothing I can say to stop you. But I'd encourage you not to post about them. Beyond that, I'd think good and hard about anyone else your shortcuts will affect and potentially harm when things go south... kids? wife? family? neighbors?

    Electricity isn't a joke. It doesn't take much for a disaster to happen when things aren't done properly and those disasters can be fast and devastating.

    Do it right, get it done right, or don't do it at all.
     
  18. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    You're quite wrong here.

    I support everything wk057 says. Just because it works, doesn't mean it's safe. Just because your house didn't burn down today, doesn't mean it won't tomorrow.

    And in many municipalities and counties, willingly violating the NEC (regardless of licensure status) is a misdemeanor offense and comes with fines and potential jail time.

    Do it right, save your own life and the lives of the people you love.
     
  19. Levi

    Levi Member

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    I don't have to know or not know the license status of everyone or anyone in this forum. There is no ABSOLUTE way to prove anyone's licenses in this forum legally. UNLESS this Tesla Motors Club was a forum OF licensed electricians, that need to prove identity and credentials to be a member of the forum, NO ONE in this forum is a licensed electrician as far as anyone is concerned. This is a simple stipulation of federal law, that some people take lightly or neglect.

    Just like a police officer can NOT call you on your personal phone, and identify himself as a police officer of the law over the phone TO prove he is who he says he is.

    Internet or telephonic communication is not sufficient legal means to prove identity of anyone.

    Believe me, I know. I just won a case recently about this.

    HUGE exception would be the converse of this, which is a website, like WebMD, where you DO need to be a licensed professional, to be inducted as a member to give advice.

    Nevertheless, this is NOT the case in this forum.

    Look, I understand your concern, and I appreciate all of your input. As a matter of fact, I didn't think you were being a hard ass until you mentioned it. But regardless of whether I would have the credentials, or not, people DO need to understand that unless you do EVERYTHING according to the local code and regulations, you're not doing it/ That's why I said that this is black and white.

    However, I can't help but feel you just felt the need to let everyone know that your word is law, and what you say goes.
    You go around telling the Moderators of THIS forum, which is not owned by you, to do their job. And telling people what they can and cannot do just because you claim to be an authority. THAT I don't appreciate. Seeing as how you thought it necessary to come and post your diatribe after I posted the much-needed and requested edit, and disclaimer. That was somehow not enough for you. And posting, in HUGE bold red letters that this work is "illegal".

    However, one thing I do need to iterate. The fact that you're doing something outside of code or regulation does not mean you're doing something "ILLEGAL". For legal to apply, you need to do something that merits an Infraction, Misdemeanor, and/or Felony. All these, upheld by the local law enforcement or higher. So, unless the cops are handing out tickets (Infractions), for you installing a wire outside of code, this action is NOT "illegal".
    Illegal would mean that this affects you, and your record ALONE. When you do something outside of code on your own home, and you get a fine, the fine is because of the fault IN THE HOUSE. And it is to correct the fault IN THE HOUSE. And once that is corrected., the record of the house is cleared.

    When is the last time you had to disclaim a code violation at a job interview??

    So, please, you may know about NEC, but don't confuse the law with local code and regulation.

    Now, IF I was doing work for someone else, claiming to be an electrician, and using inadequate materials, etc. Then maybe that would fall under the parameters of the law to prosecute me.

    In this case, I don't believe so.

    If YOU believed I was doing something illegal, or had done so, how come you didn't call the local authorities and had me arrested??

    This is not how it works. And while your opinion is appreciated, that is ALL it is. And any and all other advise anyone else may have, regardless of how detailed, or accurate it may seem, it CANNOT be taken as truth, factual, or legally approved.

    I do thank you for your time to write your message, and hope anyone and everyone reading this, and the thread does heed your warning.

    -Levi Stratos.
     
  20. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    So you are pushing what many experienced people say is an unsafe install and are arguing over semantics?
     

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