(Install not to code) Project: Save $1500

[FlasherZ]

However, one thing I do need to iterate. The fact that you're doing something outside of code or regulation does not mean you're doing something "ILLEGAL". For legal to apply, you need to do something that merits an Infraction, Misdemeanor, and/or Felony. All these, upheld by the local law enforcement or higher. So, unless the cops are handing out tickets (Infractions), for you installing a wire outside of code, this action is NOT "illegal".
Illegal would mean that this affects you, and your record ALONE. When you do something outside of code on your own home, and you get a fine, the fine is because of the fault IN THE HOUSE. And it is to correct the fault IN THE HOUSE. And once that is corrected., the record of the house is cleared.

When is the last time you had to disclaim a code violation at a job interview??

So, please, you may know about NEC, but don't confuse the law with local code and regulation.

Indeed, you are doing something illegal. In nearly every jurisdiction in this country, the NEC is codified as law. Consequences of infractions range from citable offenses to misdemeanors. In Olympia, WA, for example, each day that the NEC is willfully violated is considered a separate misdemeanor count.

In my county it is a citable offense, although we don't have electrical inspections so the route to enforcement is pretty limited.

 

[Levi]

So you are pushing what many experienced people say is an unsafe install and are arguing over semantics?

No, I am not sir. I never said that my install was safe, nor rejected anyone's words on this thread saying that it's unsafe. But yes, I will argue semantics any day.

 

[lorih]

Fortunately, I do NOT plan on being in this house for a "few years". I'm buying a new property at the end of the year, and I'll be renting this one. So, I'll be taking all my crap with me, and reinstalling in a much better, newer environment, with proper permits and code.

So, the house you will be living in will be up to code. But you are going to rent to someone else and just assume everything will be ok? Or are you taking charger with you?

 

[Levi]

Indeed, you are doing something illegal. In nearly every jurisdiction in this country, the NEC is codified as law. Consequences of infractions range from citable offenses to misdemeanors. In Olympia, WA, for example, each day that the NEC is willfully violated is considered a separate misdemeanor count.

In my county it is a citable offense, although we don't have electrical inspections so the route to enforcement is pretty limited.

Ok, not in my county. It is only a fine, upheld by the local municipality. NOT by law enforcement. You get a ticket in the mail, just like you would by not cutting your grass. In my county, you will NOT get arrested for this, unless you cause a fire, or accident. I know this because I asked, which I have urged people to do with your local municipalities.

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So, the house you will be living in will be up to code. But you are going to rent to someone else and just assume everything will be ok? Or are you taking charger with you?

. I am going to rent my house that I live in now, and I AM taking the charger with me and having it installed by the electrician, up to code, in the new house.

 

[deonb]

If you did not get a permit and have it inspected/approved, you have no insurance coverage for the house or the car if something bad happens.

I've heard this a few times.

How does an insurance company know whether you pulled a permit for a piece of work?

I tried my darndest to get a copy of a prior permit from our city hall, which I knew for a fact existed at one point because I had a partial copy of the thing in my hand.

However, according to the city, they don't as a rule keep permits or plans for more than 6 months after the permit expired.

So once the work is 6 month old, and something goes wrong, what does the insurance company use to prove that you have not pulled a permit? Does the homeowner have to keep permits for all the work ever performed?

 

[FlasherZ]

I've heard this a few times.

How does an insurance company know whether you pulled a permit for a piece of work?

I tried my darndest to get a copy of a prior permit from our city hall, which I knew for a fact existed at one point because I had a partial copy of the thing in my hand.

However, according to the city, they don't as a rule keep permits or plans for more than 6 months after the permit expired.

So once the work is 6 month old, and something goes wrong, what does the insurance company use to prove that you have not pulled a permit? Does the homeowner have to keep permits for all the work ever performed?

Some jurisdictions do keep permit records for quite some time and you can validate what permits were pulled. Home inspectors will regularly pull permit history and match it up with observed improvements.

In addition, coverage by insurance company based upon this will vary by state, depending upon the regulations and guidelines. Canuck does a great job of explaining the situation in my Q&A thread (see my signature) - there is case law in several states that prohibits insurance companies from refusing payment based upon code violation clauses, and yet in others it is untested. Regardless of whether you want to test that or not, the insurance company can always decline your claim and make your life hell while they watch you drag them to court - you'll be suffering, not them, as you rack up legal bills fighting them. Their position will be that you committed a crime in willfully violating the NEC - codified as law - and when your loss is the result of you breaking the law, they don't have to cover you.

It doesn't matter whether they're right or not, you're the one who will be suffering. So do it right the first time and avoid it.

 

[Levi]

I've heard this a few times.

How does an insurance company know whether you pulled a permit for a piece of work?

I tried my darndest to get a copy of a prior permit from our city hall, which I knew for a fact existed at one point because I had a partial copy of the thing in my hand.

However, according to the city, they don't as a rule keep permits or plans for more than 6 months after the permit expired.

So once the work is 6 month old, and something goes wrong, what does the insurance company use to prove that you have not pulled a permit? Does the homeowner have to keep permits for all the work ever performed?

Well, that would be the sensible thing. Some record of some kind that releases your liability over it. But then it just becomes a battle of your word against their word.

What I'm thinking of doing is finish installing this 100% up to code, and then get a permit for it, and see how worthless, or worth it, it is to do.
At any rate, I don't recommend anyone taking the chance that I took. I have guts of steel (can't say the B word), and I'm fearless. But no one else should take after my stupidity.

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Some jurisdictions do keep permit records for quite some time and you can validate what permits were pulled. Home inspectors will regularly pull permit history and match it up with observed improvements.

In addition, coverage by insurance company based upon this will vary by state, depending upon the regulations and guidelines. Canuck does a great job of explaining the situation in my Q&A thread (see my signature) - there is case law in several states that prohibits insurance companies from refusing payment based upon code violation clauses, and yet in others it is untested. Regardless of whether you want to test that or not, the insurance company can always decline your claim and make your life hell while they watch you drag them to court - you'll be suffering, not them, as you rack up legal bills fighting them. Their position will be that you committed a crime in willfully violating the NEC - codified as law - and when your loss is the result of you breaking the law, they don't have to cover you.

It doesn't matter whether they're right or not, you're the one who will be suffering. So do it right the first time and avoid it.

The thing is in the smaller municipalities, like mine, and probably DeonB's, they don't. They pretty much just do permits and revisions for good measure, not to uphold code, regulations, or the law. You live in St Louis, which is a huge place. I live in a town of about 50000. So, no one gives a crap here, unless you cause a fire.

-L.

 

[apacheguy]

So somehow you know the professional license status of everyone on the forum? Sounds rather ridiculous, especially when I'm 100% certain there is at least one licensed electrician on this forum.......

Aside from that nonsense, and at the risk of sounding like one of the forum's resident NEC police as per usual, I'll just echo some already voiced concerns and add some others.

Valid points, but wk057, you yourself have done a ton of DIY stuff with HV battery packs and solar. Are you a licensed electrician? How can you be so certain otherwise that you've done everything absolutely correct? Do you have formal training? Not trying to attack here, just asking questions that I am genuinely interested in hearing the answer to.

 

[FlasherZ]

The thing is in the smaller municipalities, like mine, and probably DeonB's, they don't. They pretty much just do permits and revisions for good measure, not to uphold code, regulations, or the law. You live in St Louis, which is a huge place. I live in a town of about 50000. So, no one gives a crap here, unless you cause a fire.

I don't live in St. Louis. I live in a small county of 40,000 people, in the St. Louis metropolitan area. I can assure you the municipalities here do care, the toughest inspections I deal with are in a small local community of about 15,000 people.

You're making huge generalizations that simply aren't true.

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Valid points, but wk057, you yourself have done a ton of DIY stuff with HV battery packs and solar. Are you a licensed electrician? How can you be so certain otherwise that you've done everything absolutely correct? Do you have formal training? Not trying to attack here, just asking questions that I am genuinely interested in hearing the answer to.

I can tell you that he has a really good handle on the details of the code, and we have exchanged numerous posts here that demonstrate that. I'll vouch for him. One example - he could have used simple 4/0 welding cable for the battery connections but instead waited over a week for NEC rated cable, and probably paid 4x the amount vs. taking the easy way.

Full disclosure: my current state does not have state licensing for electricians, and it is left to the county and/or municipality to perform testing and licensing. I am qualified in several jurisdictions to perform electrical work on behalf of others. It's a mess.

 

[wk057]

@Levi

At the risk of going on a tangent.... I'm honestly not sure what the big deal is here. You basically made a post telling people how to save $1500 on a charger install by doing it illegally (yes, illegal, even in your own jurisdiction per your own admission). You even offer to install for others. Sure after a day you edited it to add your "disclaimer", but that's besides the point. Multiple people called you out on this, and now you're upset and somehow still arguing against everyone else? *scratches head*

I don't tell people what they can and can not do. I don't claim to have any authority over anyone. I also do not tell any of the mods how to do their job. However, the NEC can and does tell people what they can and can not do (in 99% of the USA) as far as electrical work goes. There are laws that give it this authority.

As for the moderators, I and others occasionally do make suggestions to them. If they feel it makes sense to follow such suggestions all the better, but I'm not demanding anything of them.

Installing something like the HPWC may seem simple, but there is a lot more to it than just throwing a few wires in a breaker box and getting it to turn on. Especially the HPWC, something that draws 20,000W. This isn't like adding a light or a ceiling fan, this is a very large amount of power. The HPWC is likely in the top few home appliances as far as power draw goes. It draws more power than two electric ranges with everything on, more than four electric hot water heaters, twenty 1kW microwave ovens, 15 toasters, 325 light bulbs (60W), etc. You really won't find anything that draws more. The only exception that comes to mind, for a residence, would be an electric tankless hot water heater.

Suffice it to say, of all things in a home a HPWC @ 80A is not something you want improperly installed.

 

[AnOutsider]

Alright, I think by this point everyone knows the drill. I doubt anyone is going to hire the OP, and the pros have made their stance known. I feel if this keeps going we may end up in snippy territory, so let's take a breath here.

 

[wk057]

Valid points, but wk057, you yourself have done a ton of DIY stuff with HV battery packs and solar. Are you a licensed electrician? How can you be so certain otherwise that you've done everything absolutely correct? Do you have formal training? Not trying to attack here, just asking questions that I am genuinely interested in hearing the answer to.

While I won't go into details about my training/licensing, suffice it to say I'm pretty well versed on the NEC and have been for many years. My DIY project is completely up to code. I also sought out second opinions on much of the non-standard aspects, such as the code/legal/insurance aspects of utilizing Tesla battery modules. I've cited most of the code sections in the permit paperwork that I posted in my thread on the topic, also. Much of my project has non-obvious code implications, such as the 4/0 wire issue FlasherZ mentioned above. But I make sure to reference the NEC any time there is any question in my mind. I have both the 2011 and 2014 versions sitting right here on my desk. (2011 is in effect in NC, but 2014 has some updates that are important and that I follow anyway).

This case with the HPWC install in the first post of this thread is much more clear and the photos contain multiple very obvious code violations.

Alright, I think by this point everyone knows the drill. I doubt anyone is going to hire the OP, and the pros have made their stance known. I feel if this keeps going we may end up in snippy territory, so let's take a breath here.

Probably so, I'm just confused as to why the OP feels the need to argue in favor of this install.

 

[Fiver]

I for one fully support Levi and his amazing money saving not even remotely to code wire work. Safety third! )'(

 

[Electricfan]

I've had electricians do some wiring for me, and I've done some myself after seeing how they did it. I have a Volt and had a Model S, and have wires running all over the house and garage for charging solutions as my needs have changed and I've upgraded. Like it or not Levi and I and many many others don't like paying money for something we can do safely ourselves. There's nothing new about this. Electricians are like car mechanics and lawyers - some good ones out there but many want to take you for everything you've got. (The first one I hired after getting my Volt told me that the breakers in my breaker box were not available anymore and sold me an entirely new breaker box - $1400 - found out later the breakers I had are readily available - I was conned because I was ignorant and too trusting) The best thing we can do is share info, as Levi did, and help each other. There sure are a lot of self righteous people on this forum.

Nice job Levi. No sarcasm at all, mean it sincerely.

 

[Levi]

While I won't go into details about my training/licensing, suffice it to say I'm pretty well versed on the NEC and have been for many years. My DIY project is completely up to code. I also sought out second opinions on much of the non-standard aspects, such as the code/legal/insurance aspects of utilizing Tesla battery modules. I've cited most of the code sections in the permit paperwork that I posted in my thread on the topic, also. Much of my project has non-obvious code implications, such as the 4/0 wire issue FlasherZ mentioned above. But I make sure to reference the NEC any time there is any question in my mind. I have both the 2011 and 2014 versions sitting right here on my desk. (2011 is in effect in NC, but 2014 has some updates that are important and that I follow anyway).

This case with the HPWC install in the first post of this thread is much more clear and the photos contain multiple very obvious code violations.



Probably so, I'm just confused as to why the OP feels the need to argue in favor of this install.

I'm not arguing in favor of this install.
All I am saying is that you, and some others keep saying that I should do this or that, when this thread OBVIOUSLY started out as a non-compliant installation.
I don't care, nor anyone else should here, for that matter, whether you have extensive training, or certifications, etc. You CAN NOT prove it. Post a picture, you STILL can not prove it. The only way to prove someone has a certification and licensed training is to witness said certification in person, and verify the validity of it with a third party.
That's why restaurants have to put up their food permits, or alcohol permits in PLAIN VIEW of anyone, including the customer, not just the inspector. Because it is assumed that people have enough sense to NOT take someone's word for it.

I was starting to get a very elitist feel from you, and from others here. I thought this was supposed to be a free-opinion forum. I guess this is not exactly that medium.

And I believe you, wk057, you're just trying to prove you "know best" and everyone should heed your counsel. Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, there's no an ounce of respect for you for your attitude and demeanor.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions and inputs. I for one, am done with this.

-Levi

 

[wk057]

I've had electricians do some wiring for me, and I've done some myself after seeing how they did it. I have a Volt and had a Model S, and have wires running all over the house and garage for charging solutions as my needs have changed and I've upgraded. Like it or not Levi and I and many many others don't like paying money for something we can do safely ourselves. There's nothing new about this. Electricians are like car mechanics and lawyers - some good ones out there but many want to take you for everything you've got. (The first one I hired after getting my Volt told me that the breakers in my breaker box were not available anymore and sold me an entirely new breaker box - $1400 - found out later the breakers I had are readily available - I was conned because I was ignorant and too trusting) The best thing we can do is share info, as Levi did, and help each other. There sure are a lot of self righteous people on this forum.

Nice job Levi. No sarcasm at all, mean it sincerely.

I'm all for DIY. No where anywhere ever will you find anything that contradicts this.

If you're capable of doing the work correctly, by all means do it. However, doing a half-ass job and then bragging about it and even offering to do half-ass jobs for others is another thing entirely.

 

[wk057]

I'm not arguing in favor of this install.
All I am saying is that you, and some others keep saying that I should do this or that, when this thread OBVIOUSLY started out as a non-compliant installation.
I don't care, nor anyone else should here, for that matter, whether you have extensive training, or certifications, etc. You CAN NOT prove it. Post a picture, you STILL can not prove it. The only way to prove someone has a certification and licensed training is to witness said certification in person, and verify the validity of it with a third party.
That's why restaurants have to put up their food permits, or alcohol permits in PLAIN VIEW of anyone, including the customer, not just the inspector. Because it is assumed that people have enough sense to NOT take someone's word for it.

I was starting to get a very elitist feel from you, and from others here. I thought this was supposed to be a free-opinion forum. I guess this is not exactly that medium.

And I believe you, wk057, you're just trying to prove you "know best" and everyone should heed your counsel. Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, there's no an ounce of respect for you for your attitude and demeanor.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions and inputs. I for one, am done with this.

-Levi

I don't need to prove anything. I can simply cite the NEC, like anyone else can, and address the aspects that you're violating. This doesn't require a license or training, so, I'm not sure where the licensing nonsense even comes from.

There is a huge difference between "elitist" and pointing out something that is done illegally.

I have no need to prove anything to anyone, especially not some random user on a forum. I don't need nor desire your respect and have no feelings on your opinion of my "attitude and demeanor."

My only concern, as stated in my first post on this thread, is safety. What you have done is unsafe. Replicating the work you've done would be unsafe. Suggesting in any way that what you have done is right is unsafe.

Do I "know best" in this case? Sorry to tell you, but yes I do. I and many others and anyone with who can read the NEC.

Since I have a few minutes, lets just break it down to the facts. Nothing to do with me "knowing best" or being an "elitist." I'll just quote directly from the NEC and you can take it up with your local municipality and/or the NFPA.

---

NEC 300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord

- How you violated 300.3(B) - Your wiring is not inside a raceway and is not a cable (like NM cable).

NEC 300.4(B)(1) Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. In both exposed and concealed locations where nonmetallic-sheathed cables pass through either factory- or field-punched, cut, or drilled slots or holes in metal members, the cable shall be protected by listed bushings or listed grommets covering all metal edges that are securely fastened in the opening prior to installation of the cable.

- How you violated 300.4(B)(1) - You have a run of NM cable for your NEMA 14-50 outlet coming up through a knockout in your panel without any protection from the metal edges of the knockout.

NEC 300.11 Securing and Supporting. (A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.

- How you violated 300.11(A) - There is no raceway for the HPWC at all and the wires are not secured anywhere except at terminations. Your NM cable for the 14-50 is obviously not fastened, either, and just runs to the conduit on the wall.

NEC Chapter 9, Table 2 - Radius of Conduit and Tubing Bends - Trade Size 1", Bend size 6".

- How you violated Chapter 9 Table 2 - You didn't use 1" conduit as needed for two #3 wires and a #8 ground and installed a rear fed HPWC in a 2x4 wall where a 6" bend for such an install is impossible.



I'd continue, but that concludes my spare time for now.

 

[johnnyS]

I am an architect in California. A number of years ago I was approached by a property owner who had code violations. The local city was applying increasing pressure to correct the situation. We helped him get the necessary permits within the court stipulated time frame. This gentlemen did not respect government authority and building codes so he never completed the work. One day I got a call from his son asking if I knew where his dad was (I had no idea I had not heard from him for a couple of months). It turns out he was in Los Angeles County jail for not correcting his code violations. I think he was released in less than 60 days--his sentence--due to his age. In California anyway, the local jurisdictions all have code enforcement officers who apply increasing levels of legal pressure up to jail time to correct unpermitted work.

 

[Canuck]

...such as your insurance company refusing to pay out for a total loss of your house. Even if the fire wasn't started by an electrical issue.

The loss must be related to the breach of code and there also must be a clause in your insurance policy that excludes coverage for code breaches, and you must live in a State that has not found these types of clauses to be unenforceable. You can read more here:

FAQ: Home Tesla charging infrastructure QA - Page 15

If an insurance company could successfully deny a claim based on an unrelated code breach then many claims wouldn't be paid. You can find code breaches in many premises. Also, we buy insurance for doing stupid stuff (called negligence at law).

Having said this, I am not supporting the OP's install. I defer to FlasherZ's comments when it comes to that since he has the experience in this area. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if a fire from this install resulted in a denied claim, and then the OP would have to pay a ton in legal fees if the denial is not proper at law. So it's always best to do it by code.

 

[dflye]

NEC 300.4(B)(1) Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. In both exposed and concealed locations where nonmetallic-sheathed cables pass through either factory- or field-punched, cut, or drilled slots or holes in metal members, the cable shall be protected by listed bushings or listed grommets covering all metal edges that are securely fastened in the opening prior to installation of the cable.

- How you violated 300.4(B)(1) - You have a run of NM cable for your NEMA 14-50 outlet coming up through a knockout in your panel without any protection from the metal edges of the knockout.

Good catch from the poorly lit / grainy photo!

While not being an electrician, even I can see how it could be an issue during installation, or if in a location where vibration / movement would cause the cable to rub against the cutout after installation.

But I'm wondering how often that really is an issue in a garage? Does the vibration from a garage door opening/closing provide enough gentle sawing on the cable sheath over a number of years to gnaw away to the bare wire? Unless the cable is taught enough to be firmly against the cutting edge of the cutout, this seems more like a broad rule to cover a narrow issue. Which I guess is what you want from a government / insurance perspective. Not so much from the DIY view.*

*Note that the majority of the DIY electrical work in our house was done while building out our basement and was reviewed by a licensed electrician.