(Install not to code) Project: Save $1500

[wk057]

Good catch from the poorly lit / grainy photo!

While not being an electrician, even I can see how it could be an issue during installation, or if in a location where vibration / movement would cause the cable to rub against the cutout after installation.

But I'm wondering how often that really is an issue in a garage? Does the vibration from a garage door opening/closing provide enough gentle sawing on the cable sheath over a number of years to gnaw away to the bare wire? Unless the cable is taught enough to be firmly against the cutting edge of the cutout, this seems more like a broad rule to cover a narrow issue. Which I guess is what you want from a government / insurance perspective. Not so much from the DIY view.*

*Note that the majority of the DIY electrical work in our house was done while building out our basement and was reviewed by a licensed electrician.

There are many reasons for this particular code. Keep in mind that there is expansion/contraction from heat as well. Can be heat generated in the wiring itself or changes in ambient temperature over time (common in a garage). Combine that with any number of things that can cause the wire to move/vibrate and eventually you'll end up with a short.

There were actually a couple of DIY wires done like this in the house I'm currently in. (Long story short repair costs to bring it up to code deducted from the buy price as well as the cost of a more comprehensive electrical inspection once this was noticed.) When I removed them when I relocated my branch circuits in phase 1 of my solar project one of them was already nearly completely compromised with a slice through it through the outside jacket and part way through the hot wire. And this was a lighting circuit with maybe 8A worth of lights on it, not a 50A circuit...

Definitely a pretty simple code to stick to, also.

 

[FlasherZ]

But I'm wondering how often that really is an issue in a garage? Does the vibration from a garage door opening/closing provide enough gentle sawing on the cable sheath over a number of years to gnaw away to the bare wire? Unless the cable is taught enough to be firmly against the cutting edge of the cutout, this seems more like a broad rule to cover a narrow issue. Which I guess is what you want from a government / insurance perspective. Not so much from the DIY view.*

Yes - over time, even loud music (bass) played in the garage can vibrate the cable enough to create cuts in the wire. Those knockouts are sharp and will cut you. All they have to do is nick the insulation of the wire. It's worse on top-fed cables where the weight of the cable keeps applying pressure against the box - listed clamps are required.

Also, it's not that you have to get to the bare wire. All you have to do is nick the insulation a bit and it can start oxidation processes that weaken the wire over time. That plus the high currents of vehicle charging place extra stress on the conductor and wear it out more quickly.

 

[bluetinc]

wk057,

I'm trying to trace down your ~6" bend radius note. I get a little wrapped around the axle with the various ways NEC talks about space requirements, so I could just be reading this wrong but: I thought that from 312.6(A) the min 90 degree bend radius (depth) for #3 would be 2", 6" would be for 500MCM, and 314.28(A) would require the height to be 6" (6x the trade size of the conduit) unless the box is smaller and marked for use of #3 wire. Provided that you are leaving access to the cover, that should fit within a 2x4 wall, right?


Oh, and to keep this more on topic,

Levi,

Where is the $1,500 of saving that you mention? It seems like we may be only talking about the cost of the permit itself and less than $15 in various conduit and adapters which you may or may not have used? You used #3 copper, and paid for the HPWC, I'm trying to see what you did to save so much by not pulling a permit as it seems the only real difference between the two is some knowledge, time, and desire to do it "right", not money.

Peter

Additionally, that looks like a 2x4 studded wall from the photo. The minimum bend radius (off the top of my head) for 1" conduit (the minimum size allowed for two #3 and a #8 ground) is ~6"... which isn't happening in a 2x4 wall. You also can't put a conduit body inside the wall to make the turn, either, since it needs to be accessible. Since you're feeding from the back I don't know how you did this with conduit.

 

[FlasherZ]

I'm trying to trace down your ~6" bend radius note. I get a little wrapped around the axle with the various ways NEC talks about space requirements, so I could just be reading this wrong but: I thought that from 312.6(A) the min 90 degree bend radius (depth) for #3 would be 2", 6" would be for 500MCM, and 314.28(A) would require the height to be 6" (6x the trade size of the conduit) unless the box is smaller and marked for use of #3 wire. Provided that you are leaving access to the cover, that should fit within a 2x4 wall, right?

NEC 2014: 312.6(A) talks about width of wiring gutters, not sure that's what you meant. Likewise, 314.28(A)(2) talks about splices / U-pulls (basically, junctions inside a box), which require 6x the diameter of the entering raceway (so that you don't create a super-tight "U" inside in the box).

For wire-in-conduit, you generally don't have to worry about specific bend radius of the conductors, because it's considered in the required conduit radius and conduit fill ratio requirements.

The information is in the code in each section for the conduit (for example, sch 80 PVC is in 352.24), but the easiest is to go to chapter 9, table 2. 1" conduit requires a 5 3/4" bend radius using one-shot/full-shoe bender, and other bends require 6". 352.24 points at chap 9, table 2 anyway.

I've seen a lot of DIY'ers use plumbing elbows for a hard 90" turn, that's not permitted - you must use a listed sweep for the appropriate radius, or an accessible pullbox (JB).

 

[bluetinc]

FlasherZ,

The original note had to do with the bend needed to enter the HPWC from the rear. 312.6A (referenced from 314.28(A)(2)) would have been used for the bend radius requirement of the pullbox placed behind the HPWC to make the final bend in depth. At least that is what I believe WK was speaking to with his 6" 2"x4" comment.

Peter

NEC 2014: 312.6(A) talks about width of wiring gutters, not sure that's what you meant. Likewise, 314.28(A)(2) talks about splices / U-pulls (basically, junctions inside a box), which require 6x the diameter of the entering raceway (so that you don't create a super-tight "U" inside in the box).

For wire-in-conduit, you generally don't have to worry about specific bend radius of the conductors, because it's considered in the required conduit radius and conduit fill ratio requirements.

The information is in the code in each section for the conduit (for example, sch 80 PVC is in 352.24), but the easiest is to go to chapter 9, table 2. 1" conduit requires a 5 3/4" bend radius using one-shot/full-shoe bender, and other bends require 6". 352.24 points at chap 9, table 2 anyway.

I've seen a lot of DIY'ers use plumbing elbows for a hard 90" turn, that's not permitted - you must use a listed sweep for the appropriate radius, or an accessible pullbox (JB).

 

[FlasherZ]

FlasherZ,

The original note had to do with the bend needed to enter the HPWC from the rear. 312.6A (referenced from 314.28(A)(2)) would have been used for the bend radius requirement of the pullbox placed behind the HPWC to make the final bend in depth. At least that is what I believe WK was speaking to with his 6" 2"x4" comment.

314.28(A)(2) doesn't apply for a direct sweep into the HPWC - that is for splices and "through-wires" in pull/junction boxes and doesn't apply to the HPWC. Table 312.6(A) describes the minimum wire-bending space at terminals and the minimum width of wiring gutters inside cabinets and cut-out boxes, and doesn't apply to appliances like the HPWC, either.

EDIT: I think I see what you're getting at. If you're speaking of a pull-box like an LB or some other utility box, that wouldn't be legal because the cover of the pull box must be accessible and cannot be behind the wall or HPWC. LB's can only be used when accessible, so you would have to use a direct 90 degree sweep into the HPWC, which would require 6" inside the wall (which is also why I asked the OP "how did you do the 90 degree bend into the HPWC").

Only the bend radius in the appropriate raceway article is required when connecting to the back of the HPWC. If PVC conduit, 352.24; if FMC, 348.24; if LFNC, 356.24; etc... They all point to chapter 9, table 2. Note that wk057 specifically referred to chapter 9, table 2 in his 6" statement (bold text):

NEC Chapter 9, Table 2 - Radius of Conduit and Tubing Bends - Trade Size 1", Bend size 6".

- How you violated Chapter 9 Table 2 - You didn't use 1" conduit as needed for two #3 wires and a #8 ground and installed a rear fed HPWC in a 2x4 wall where a 6" bend for such an install is impossible.

Technically, you can get away with 5 3/4" radius if you use EMT with a proper bender, but for all intent and purpose, it's the same as 6".

 

[Electricfan]

Levi,

Where is the $1,500 of saving that you mention? It seems like we may be only talking about the cost of the permit itself and less than $15 in various conduit and adapters which you may or may not have used? You used #3 copper, and paid for the HPWC, I'm trying to see what you did to save so much by not pulling a permit as it seems the only real difference between the two is some knowledge, time, and desire to do it "right", not money.

Peter

Isn't he talking about the cost of hiring an electrician? Its not uncommon to see $1500 quotes for installation of chargers in the garage. I asked for a quote to move an existing outlet from one wall of my garage to another and it was something like $600 or $800, don't remember exactly. But he did the installation himself saving the cost of paying a professional, and I think that's the savings he's referring to - what else could it be?

I doubt you get an answer from Levi - he said he's done with this post. Can't blame him after he got so massively flamed. Shocking how rude people on this forum are sometimes.

 

[dsm363]

I doubt you get an answer from Levi - he said he's done with this post. Can't blame him after he got so massively flamed. Shocking how rude people on this forum are sometimes.

Can you report the posts? Must have missed them. Pointing out that something someone did might be dangerous is not flaming them.

 

[pgiralt]

Isn't he talking about the cost of hiring an electrician? Its not uncommon to see $1500 quotes for installation of chargers in the garage. I asked for a quote to move an existing outlet from one wall of my garage to another and it was something like $600 or $800, don't remember exactly. But he did the installation himself saving the cost of paying a professional, and I think that's the savings he's referring to - what else could it be?

I doubt you get an answer from Levi - he said he's done with this post. Can't blame him after he got so massively flamed. Shocking how rude people on this forum are sometimes.

I'm sure he is talking about a professional install but I can't see this costing more than maybe $300 including a permit and materials. This would take a professional electrician less than an hour to do being so close to the panel like that. I was also wondering where the $1500 number was coming from.

 

[FlasherZ]

I doubt you get an answer from Levi - he said he's done with this post. Can't blame him after he got so massively flamed. Shocking how rude people on this forum are sometimes.

Could you point out the rude posts? I merely pointed out that this was about as far away from code-compliant as one could be and why.

However, I have seen this before, on other forums discussing electrical work. The OP posts something that is extremely dangerous and against code, and when it's pointed out to them that they are far off the mark, the response is "I can't believe you're so rude, I can do this the way I damn well want to, to hell with the inspectors and NEC."

And you know, he's right - he can do it the way he wants, ignoring the law. And maybe he'll get lucky enough that his house won't burn and his family members won't be injured or killed. Electricity doesn't always work the way people think, the code is there to protect lives and property. I can't stop them from flaunting it in their own home but I will speak up to prevent others from being put in a harmful position.

You can appreciate the ingenuity and craftsmanship (or lack thereof) all you want, but bottom line is that dangerous installations won't go without lots of warning here.

 

[AnOutsider]

Can you report the posts? Must have missed them. Pointing out that something someone did might be dangerous is not flaming them.

Could you point out the rude posts? ... bottom line is that dangerous installations won't go without lots of warning here.

Emphasis mine.

One doesn't have to be outright rude to push someone away. For pages now this thread has been a bunch of piling on and politely-worded "you don't know anything, I do" posts. Over. And Over. He isn't even posting here anymore and the finger wagging continues.

 

[Electricfan]

Emphasis mine.

One doesn't have to be outright rude to push someone away. For pages now this thread has been a bunch of piling on and politely-worded "you don't know anything, I do" posts. Over. And Over. He isn't even posting here anymore and the finger wagging continues.

Yeah - this thread is the poster child for all that can go wrong with a forum post. Funny, people will say things in emails, and forum posts, that they'd never say in person. Levi could have shown his install to anybody on this forum in person, both of them standing there in his garage, and even the people who think he did a horrible job would have been polite and worded suggestions for improvement in a socially acceptable manner. But somehow it seems like everything you're supposed to have learned in kindergarten goes out the window when people sit down at a computer and start typing. I've done it myself. Maybe this is an example. Don't know.

 

[TexasEV]

I think this episode falls in the category of some people don't know what it is that they don't know.

 

[wk057]

Emphasis mine.

One doesn't have to be outright rude to push someone away. For pages now this thread has been a bunch of piling on and politely-worded "you don't know anything, I do" posts. Over. And Over. He isn't even posting here anymore and the finger wagging continues.

Yeah - this thread is the poster child for all that can go wrong with a forum post. Funny, people will say things in emails, and forum posts, that they'd never say in person. Levi could have shown his install to anybody on this forum in person, both of them standing there in his garage, and even the people who think he did a horrible job would have been polite and worded suggestions for improvement in a socially acceptable manner. But somehow it seems like everything you're supposed to have learned in kindergarten goes out the window when people sit down at a computer and start typing. I've done it myself. Maybe this is an example. Don't know.

I don't see anyone who has voiced anything against the OP's install being impolite or rude. Seems everyone is trying to make something out of nothing on that front. The OP's install is illegal, that has been pointed out. People argued that it was fine, additional details proving it's lack of legality provided, etc.

If I saw that in real life the first thing I'd do is tell the person it was done illegally, poorly, and against various code. Interestingly enough it seems like that's exactly what I did here also! Plain and simple. Internet or no internet, wrong is wrong. I'm not going to let something like that slide *especially* if I had seen it in person. If I had seen it in person, voiced my concerns, and the person still insisted on leaving it be I'd offer to fix it myself. Beyond that if still no dice, I'd probably weigh some additional factors (is the person the only one in immediate danger?) and possibly even contact the appropriate authorities if applicable.

If you've followed any of my other posts on these matters you'll know I've offered material and service free of charge to others who have posted about similarly illegal installs. I assure you my intentions here are nothing but benevolent and in the interest of safety. If you read any ill will, rudeness, impoliteness, or any other negative intention from that then you seriously have some wires crossed (pun intended).

 

[FlasherZ]

Emphasis mine.

One doesn't have to be outright rude to push someone away. For pages now this thread has been a bunch of piling on and politely-worded "you don't know anything, I do" posts. Over. And Over. He isn't even posting here anymore and the finger wagging continues.

I disagree.

The finger-wagging was not for the OP, but for anyone else who would read this. And if you look at my posts from today, I don't do finger-wagging, but rather education - for example the point about pull boxes was in response to a question from bluetinc and the wire insulation cuts was in response to dflye's question.

As for Electricfan's complaints - sorry, but I indeed would tell you in person that you have a non-compliant, illegal installation that is subject to misdemeanor arrest in some jurisdictions. I do this here on a regular basis. It's just that some people are so dead set in doing things illegally to save a buck that they're willing to do exactly what you're talking about - say "to hell with the code, I don't care". Do it to yourself if you insist, but don't teach others to break code which is law.

 

[mitch672]

all I can say is wow. take a look at my DIY install.. this is a 100A subpanel fed with 1" flex, contains (3) #3's (2 hots & nuetral) + (1) #6 for the ground. An electrician did wire this subpanel, to the main breaker panel which is on the other side of the garage, 12' away, the flex runs up above the garage, then down to the main panel. It has a 100A breaker on it, as does the HPWC on the subpanel. The 14-50 is their for a backup, and I use it with my pressure washer (not when charging though). I did the HPWC install, I'm sure theirs some code issue with the 1" flex 90's, but its the only thing that works in this situation (suppose I could have used 1" PVC sweeps, but that would have brought the wiring out to the left much more)

 

[FlasherZ]

A 14-50 on a pressure washer? That must be serious!

Why the transition from FMC to PVC? Just to make the fitting work in the HPWC?

I also see you don't use the hanger for the coupling connector, mine keeps falling out because of the natural twist in the HPWC cable.

 

[mitch672]

A 14-50 on a pressure washer? That must be serious!

Why the transition from FMC to PVC? Just to make the fitting work in the HPWC?

I also see you don't use the hanger for the coupling connector, mine keeps falling out because of the natural twist in the HPWC cable.

pressure washer is a 240V / 7.5HP, 2700PSI @ 3.8GPM, I even bought a motor starter for it, for overload protection (and I installed a flow switch with a delay off timer, so it stops the motor after you let off the trigger for 15 seconds) it draws 32Amps max, yes, it's mostly used to wash the mud off the Model S in the winter, lots of the car washes where frozen up for a lot of the winter here.

The 1" PVC is the only thing that would fit in that side entrance (and you can barely get a locknut/bushing on it). The FMC, frankly I had it leftover, along with the fittings. I could have spent more $ and used PVC sweeps/elbows, etc, but its such a short distance, it would almost be "elbow to elbow" (its like 16" or less of FMC).

 

[Canuck]

One doesn't have to be outright rude to push someone away. For pages now this thread has been a bunch of piling on and politely-worded "you don't know anything, I do" posts. Over. And Over. He isn't even posting here anymore and the finger wagging continues.

I don't get the problem with too many "politely-worded" posts? I see a lot of very informative posts in this thread that serve the purpose of informing people on how to do a proper install the result of which is not risking property and lives. With more and more people buying Teslas, to allow such a poor install to receive only one or two politely worded rebuttals, as you seem to suggest is appropriate, wouldn't be a proper response to the seriousness of the offence shown in the first picture.

But then again, you rudely bashed me in another thread today saying about me "There's always someone...". Then you come here and mention about others being rude. How ironic.

 

[mwulff]

Coming from a different angle I think it's only fair that people react and warn the OP. This could cause a fire and potentially flood the media with headlines like "Tesla burns house down", "Tesla Model Fire" and what have we not.

Seriously buying a $50k-$100k car and saving $1500 on wiring is just apocalyptically stupid.