Installing Wall Charger vs Mobile Connector

[dafish]

This is prolly the best option for 60 amp hardwired, if you find somebody leeping it 1000' rolls.

SER 6-6-6-6 Cu 500R | Southwire

Service Entrance Cable Style SER Service Entrance Cable, 600 Volt. Individual Conductors Rated XHHW-2. Jacket and Individual Conductors Sunlight Resistant.

www.southwire.com

Or 4-4-44 in aluminum, but it can be rough to get into a box... Cheap though

 

[YoYoMa]

Be sure to also check for State incentives, A quick search found this (I think it is applicable?)

Electric Vehicle Incentive Programs | NJ OCE Web Site

njcleanenergy.com

Also, check with your power company for time of use power plans since you can charge the car in the evenings.

I think PSEG gives $1500 in credit to bill to help with labor and NJ gives $250 towards charger itself. Not sure how easy it is to get them or how accurate I am but that is what I read.

 

[YoYoMa]

Good, some guys with wire knowledge checking in. Reading the early posts made me wonder a bit.

Cost:
Wire gauge gets Expen$$ive fast. So does the hassle (think time) of working with it. A hard-wired 60 amp rated to 48 will cost substantially more than a 14-50 rated to 40amps. Not "a few pennies". The installed cost could double.

It gets harder. The electricians are only going to carry so many gauges in spools. You insist on hardwired 60amp on copper? You may well get to pay for 100' of precut even though they actually needed 75'. At perhaps $15 a foot.

But finding a shop keeping 1000' rolls of 4/3 NM? That's possible. So is somebody keeping something like 2-2-2-3, but it's a LOT bigger and harder to work with. Labor is NOT cheap, especially if its heavy enough to push to a 2, or 3, man crew because the wire will literally pull a guy off a ladder.

So yea, a few things to maybe nitpick on, but the last few guys should be listened too for they obviously (and correctly) understand gauge vs insulation and temp better than the average bear.

Finally I can say this:
1) 14-50? I use them a lot. Make sure you buy commercial grade receptables!!!
2) Personally I'll buy a mobile wired and a wall. If the mobile remains back-ordered you can be certain I'll stick a 14-50 plug on the wall and move forward. I'll just turn down the OBC.
3) Ground fault? All depends on where you live. Many, if not most, cities and towns are slow to adopt NEC code updates. I'd have to go look but GFCI wasn't required on 240V until somewhat recently (maybe 2018?). I would not put one on a 14-50 unless I had too.

I guess I’ll get numbers for both and maybe they make my decision easy for me. Not paying double.

 

[ATPMSD]

Ground fault? All depends on where you live. Many, if not most, cities and towns are slow to adopt NEC code updates. I'd have to go look but GFCI wasn't required on 240V until somewhat recently (maybe 2018?

This is code, not optional. I suggest the idea that you may be able to get around it because a jurisdiction has not adopted the current code (actually this was changed in 2018 I believe) ignores the fact this was added to the code for a reason. Bad idea to try to skirt this.

 

[sidewinder]

You can run THHN MC cable in 6/2 + ground configuration for a simpler install which isn't super expensive. That's rated for 75amps@90c. However, you'll need to check your breaker specifications because that may only be rated for 60c or 75c so it's safest to just stick with 4awg to be safe and sure.

i plan on running about 35ft of two 6ga (hot) and one 10ga (ground) THHN from a 60a breaker to the wall charger (in a conduit of course). do you think a 10ga is good enough for ground or should it be 8ga? also curious as to why breaker temperature spec would matter in this case if wiring will be only used to draw 48a max connected to the wall charger which is no where near the capacity of the breaker/wire.

This is what i'll be using

hot (x2)

Southwire (By-the-Foot) 6 Black Stranded CU SIMpull THHN Wire 20493399 - The Home Depot

Southwire's THHN and THWN-2 is a multi-purpose building wire used in conduit and cable trays for service, feeders and branch circuits in commercial and industrial applications. It is also used as a conductor

www.homedepot.com

ground (x1)

Southwire By-the-Foot 10 Black Stranded CU THHN Wire 22973299 - The Home Depot

Southwire's THHN and THWN-2 is a multi-purpose building wire used in conduit and cable trays for service, feeders and branch circuits in commercial and industrial applications. It is also used as a conductor

www.homedepot.com

 

[sidewinder]

THHN 90c wire, which in likely not acceptable in a home environment.

is there a specific reason why THHN would not be acceptable in a home?

 

[240vPlug]

is there a specific reason why THHN would not be acceptable in a home?

I was curious about this. AFAIK Romex is basically bundled THHN wire sheathed in PVC.

 

[dafish]

Yes. wires must be in a common sheath. If you use THHN, typically individual wires, you'd need to install in conduit. Nothing wrong with that, but most times cost is the factor trying to be controlled.

 

[dafish]

ATP;

We agree, mostly. Again, if your township hasn't adopted 2018 NEC, and most haven't, than its not "code" for that area.

As to need, it's not as black and white as you may (or may not) think. Most EVSE MFG's will tell you they include one integrated into their product and recommend not using an additional one. Tesla? I got no idea. My Tesla SA's are useless...

Nor am I too concerned about it. Losing a ground on a dedicated circuit like this is almost impossible, and of course that's all it detects and protects. It's not some magic protection circuit (as I'm sure you know).

But we need not agree. Have a great day, and peace be with you.

-d

 

[ATPMSD]

is there a specific reason why THHN would not be acceptable in a home?

It is my understanding, perhaps, incorrectly, that THHN wire is intended for commercial installations. Additionally, I believe it is more expensive so pay the extra money?

 

[ATPMSD]

Most EVSE MFG's will tell you they include one integrated into their product and recommend not using an additional one.

The integrated GFCI protects the EVSE internally. The GFCI in the breaker protects the outlet. They serve different purposes.

In a hardware installation there is no need to protect an outlet since one does not exist. With the 14-50 there is an outlet and so the GFCI breaker is needed to protect the outlet.

 

[dafish]

YoYo:

What wire an electrician decides to inventory will make a huge difference in your quote. I guy with a 1000' spool of 6-6-6-6 SER wire is going to be your cheapest 60 amp compliant quote. It might even be worth asking on the phone what wire they have on hand for your job. No point in a parade of electricians coming out to quote if they are all shooting you stupid high wire quotes.

 

[240vPlug]

It is my understanding, perhaps, incorrectly, that THHN wire is intended for commercial installations. Additionally, I believe it is more expensive so pay the extra money?

THHN is more economical than ROMEX but must be installed in conduit. I am not aware of any restriction on using it only in commercial settings but it is probably used there more since its more cost effective.

The integrated GFCI protects the EVSE internally. The GFCI in the breaker protects the outlet. They serve different purposes.

In a hardware installation there is no need to protect an outlet since one does not exist. With the 14-50 there is an outlet and so the GFCI breaker is needed to protect the outlet.

GFCI protects people from shock. GFCI is needed to prevent shock at any readily accessible connection. The 14-50 is a connection point so the GFCI breaker is required to protect the person from a potentially fatal shock when they are plugging/unplugging the 14-50 plug. Similarly the built-in GFCI in the TWC protects the users when they are plugging/unplugging from the vehicle. The terminations inside the TWC are not readily accessible so the GFCI breaker is not required.

 

[mattnis]

Labor is about the same but the wire will cost a few cents more per foot for Wall Connector.. Wall Connector will be a 60A line for 48A charging. Mobile is a 40A or 50A line for 32A charging. For mobile, you need a wall plate and outlet box/outlet and possibly a GFCI where you live. Wall Connector is direct wire so you save those parts.
If new wire, future proof yourself with 60A line and breaker.

not if installing nema 14-50 outlet

 

[YW555]

I installed our Wall Connector next to the breaker panel in about an hour in the dark with some flash lights. It was pretty simple since you just need to connect the wire between the breaker and the Wall Connector. I ended up going with 50AMP breaker since I already have one laying around and 6/2 Romex wire is a lot easier to get than 4/2 or 4/3. Commission the Wall Connector to 50AMP breaker and you are good to go.

The wireless feature on the Wall Connector is a pain in the ass though. It'll disconnect every 30 seconds for some reason. It's super picky about the wireless access point you have.

 

[brisk]

The integrated GFCI protects the EVSE internally. The GFCI in the breaker protects the outlet. They serve different purposes.

In a hardware installation there is no need to protect an outlet since one does not exist. With the 14-50 there is an outlet and so the GFCI breaker is needed to protect the outlet.

This makes sense. I am in Illinois which is one of the states that did not fully adopt the NEC code.
So some electricians are saying no need and only one says it is needed for Illinois.

The ones that said you don't need it is saying whenever you unplug, make sure you turn off the breaker to be safe as the cars have an integrated GFCI and some chargers do, but not Tesla Mobile Charger I believe.

I'm torn between WC and MC too...ha

 

[ATPMSD]

The wireless feature on the Wall Connector is a pain in the ass though. It'll disconnect every 30 seconds for some reason. It's super picky about the wireless access point you have.

If you are talking about the WiFi connection from the unit to your home AP, then consider:

1. The network you connect to must be 2.4 GHz, not 5Ghz
2. It must not be a Mesh network
3. WPA3 is also a problem
4. Use your phone to check the strength of the WiFi signal at the location of the connector.

 

[ATPMSD]

I'm torn between WC and MC too...ha

Re-read post #6. There are very few reasons to chose the MC over the WC.

 

[ATPMSD]

The ones that said you don't need it is saying whenever you unplug, make sure you turn off the breaker to be safe as the cars have an integrated GFCI and some chargers do, but not Tesla Mobile Charger I believe.

The suggestion to turn-off the breaker should serve as a clue as to why the GFCI breaker is needed. Also, breakers should not be used as switches. If you go with an outlet install the GFCI breaker.

Both the Tesla MC and WC have integrated GFCI, which protects the units. But as stated previously, this does not protect an outlet. If you install an outlet you need the GFCI breaker.

 

[brisk]

The suggestion to turn-off the breaker should serve as a clue as to why the GFCI breaker is needed. Also, breakers should not be used as switches. If you go with an outlet install the GFCI breaker.

Both the Tesla MC and WC have integrated GFCI, which protects the units. But as stated previously, this does not protect an outlet. If you install an outlet you need the GFCI breaker.

Thanks for the clarification.
I have one last electrician coming out to do a final quote on.
Maybe I end up going WC myself with some Romex cables.