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International Electric-Car Charging-Plug Standards

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There is an old saying in the computer biz: "G-d created heaven and earth in six days. But he didn't have an installed base".

The standards being used now are going to be with us for a very long time. From a North American viewpoint, I can see J3068 poised to rise as fleet operators start having their say.

TPC is not going anywhere. It would behoove third party fast charging companies to support TPC - as it seems stupid to ignore 70% or more of the EV market. (When it comes to road tripping, I'd argue more like 95+% are Teslas.). EVgo has made some moves to support TPC. Though more urban than along highway corridors. Nonetheless, I've usefully used an EVgo station with the integrated Tesla adapter several times.

On the CHAdeMO front, Nissan really should have gone to CCS with the Gen 2 Leaf. Waiting for the Ariya was a mistake. OTOH, considering what they are selling for on eBay, Tesla stopped production of the CHAdeMO adapter at least six months too early.
 
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How many people even take their vehicles overseas?
Anyone who's ever taken an extended trip overseas or has moved overseas is a good candidate to do it. Particularly if anyone is moving to a country that taxes vehicles heavily. There's less of a motivation to do it when moving to the US, but going from the US to Asian countries? Way better to take your existing car than pay taxes on a new one.
What if someone driving a regular unlead gas car want to fuel up at a diesel station for semi-trailer trucks?
There's a pretty good reason for the connector to not fit given that diesel fuel will damage an engine designed for gasoline. On the other hand, if I'm driving my turbodiesel Jetta or F-250 there's no reason why I should have trouble connecting to the pump (and I won't).
 
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Anyone who's ever taken an extended trip overseas or has moved overseas is a good candidate to do it. Particularly if anyone is moving to a country that taxes vehicles heavily. There's less of a motivation to do it when moving to the US, but going from the US to Asian countries? Way better to take your existing car than pay taxes on a new one.

There's a pretty good reason for the connector to not fit given that diesel fuel will damage an engine designed for gasoline. On the other hand, if I'm driving my turbodiesel Jetta or F-250 there's no reason why I should have trouble connecting to the pump (and I won't).
Your argument reeks of whataboutism.

The number of people affected is very very small.
 
The standards being used now are going to be with us for a very long time. From a North American viewpoint, I can see J3068 poised to rise as fleet operators start having their say.
Unless we are going to start talking about buses, J-3068 is really irrelevent.

Passenger vehicles aren't going to use it.

TPC is not going anywhere. It would behoove third party fast charging companies to support TPC - as it seems stupid to ignore 70% or more of the EV market. (When it comes to road tripping, I'd argue more like 95+% are Teslas.). EVgo has made some moves to support TPC. Though more urban than along highway corridors. Nonetheless, I've usefully used an EVgo station with the integrated Tesla adapter several times.
TPC is proprietary and no one else other than Tesla uses it.

With other automakers now selling (or will soon be selling) EVs, Tesla vehicles will be a minority.

With all the other automakers uses CCS, it with be the majority.

...then there's the CCS adapter for Tesla vehicles, which will make TPC even more irrelevant.
 
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Unless we are going to start talking about buses, J-3068 is really irrelevent.

Passenger vehicles aren't going to use it.
There are a lot of commercial buildings and apartment buildings that use 3 phase electricity, and using a 3 phase connector and OBC means that I'd be able to get way better than about 6 kW out of a 32A EVSE. I can definitely notice the lag when charging at 208V vs. 240V. Pretty much all L2 charging at work and at malls is currently 208V and we can't get more than 10 kW out of that with our 48A, single phase connector.
TPC is proprietary and no one else other than Tesla uses it.
So? The Lightning cable is proprietary, and no one else other than Apple uses it. But it served its purpose pretty well acting as a fully reversible alternative to USB, when USB was still frustrating users with its inability to insert the connectors one way. The only mistake Apple made was not switching over to USB-C when that standard came out.
With other automakers now selling (or will soon be selling) EVs, Tesla vehicles will be a minority.

With all the other automakers uses CCS, it with be the majority.

...then there's the CCS adapter for Tesla vehicles, which will make TPC even more irrelevant.
You come up with something better than TPC then. I'm not going to use a connector that doesn't allow me to open the charge port with the push of one button and has an awful latch on top that often breaks on public chargers. The best we can hope for is that a connector is developed that has all of the best features of everything else out there:
- Single button press opens the charge port
- 3 phase support for commercial and apartment buildings + DC fast charging support and reuses pins when possible i.e. two large pins (N/DC-, L1/DC+) plus three small pins (ground, L2, L3)
- A locking mechanism in the vehicle that doesn't use a 3" lever that sometimes breaks

You must either not use the TPC or open your charge port manually by habit, because there's nothing easier than grabbing the TPC, pressing the button, and plugging in when I've got my keys and masks and other stuff from my car in one hand after I get into the garage. In my PHEV, I always have to put stuff down or into my pocket because it takes one hand to hold the connector and another hand to open the charge port door and then the little door over the J1772 connector.
 
There are a lot of commercial buildings and apartment buildings that use 3 phase electricity, and using a 3 phase connector and OBC means that I'd be able to get way better than about 6 kW out of a 32A EVSE. I can definitely notice the lag when charging at 208V vs. 240V. Pretty much all L2 charging at work and at malls is currently 208V and we can't get more than 10 kW out of that with our 48A, single phase connector.
We already have 80A 19.2 kW J-1772 chargers that many EVs don't even support and you are telling me that that is not enough?

So? The Lightning cable is proprietary, and no one else other than Apple uses it. But it served its purpose pretty well acting as a fully reversible alternative to USB, when USB was still frustrating users with its inability to insert the connectors one way. The only mistake Apple made was not switching over to USB-C when that standard came out.
I was a mistake not forcing Apple to conform to standard.

You come up with something better than TPC then. I'm not going to use a connector that doesn't allow me to open the charge port with the push of one button and has an awful latch on top that often breaks on public chargers. The best we can hope for is that a connector is developed that has all of the best features of everything else out there:
- Single button press opens the charge port
- 3 phase support for commercial and apartment buildings + DC fast charging support and reuses pins when possible i.e. two large pins (N/DC-, L1/DC+) plus three small pins (ground, L2, L3)
- A locking mechanism in the vehicle that doesn't use a 3" lever that sometimes breaks

You must either not use the TPC or open your charge port manually by habit, because there's nothing easier than grabbing the TPC, pressing the button, and plugging in when I've got my keys and masks and other stuff from my car in one hand after I get into the garage. In my PHEV, I always have to put stuff down or into my pocket because it takes one hand to hold the connector and another hand to open the charge port door and then the little door over the J1772 connector.
Most peole don't give a *sugar* what the connector is.

They just want to be pull up to a charging station and charge their EVs.
 
We already have 80A 19.2 kW J-1772 chargers that many EVs don't even support and you are telling me that that is not enough?
I have never seen a mall or office building install wiring for 80A. But they all have wiring for 3 phase and the transformers that the EVSEs use are all 3 phase transformers. 80A/split phase also uses a lot more copper an equivalent setup that delivers 19.2 kW on 3 phase.
Most peole don't give a *sugar* what the connector is.

They just want to be pull up to a charging station and charge their EVs.
And they can. Pull up, bring out proper adapter, put adapter on connector, DONE! It's not a big deal.

What is a much bigger deal is how long it takes to connect and disconnect where you do it most. As one of my professors in a class about computer architecture says, "Make the common case fast!" (it was also mentioned that making uncommon/more rare cases slower as a consequence of making the common case fast is a good trade-off to make, so long as the total amount of time saved by making the common case fast is greater than the total amount of extra time spent on uncommon cases). And so we have the TPC and its button, which makes the common case fast; a good tradeoff for making the uncommon case of charging outside of your home slightly slower. I really wonder who if anyone holds the patent on the EVSE connector button and RF signal that opens the charge port. Did Tesla develop that idea, or did it license it from someone else who holds the patent?
 
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I have never seen a mall or office building install wiring for 80A. But they all have wiring for 3 phase and the transformers that the EVSEs use are all 3 phase transformers.
Get electricians to install 80A wiring. Problem solved.

And they can. Pull up, bring out proper adapter, put adapter on connector, DONE! It's not a big deal.

What is a much bigger deal is how long it takes to connect and disconnect where you do it most. As one of my professors in a class about computer architecture says, "Make the common case fast!" (it was also mentioned that making uncommon/more rare cases slower as a consequence of making the common case fast is a good trade-off to make, so long as the total amount of time saved by making the common case fast is greater than the total amount of extra time spent on uncommon cases). And so we have the TPC and its button, which makes the common case fast; a good tradeoff for making the uncommon case of charging outside of your home slightly slower. I really wonder who if anyone holds the patent on the EVSE connector button and RF signal that opens the charge port. Did Tesla develop that idea, or did it license it from someone else who holds the patent?
...until he found out that left the adapter at home and now he is stranded in the middle of nowhere

Never mind the people that don't have the adapter and didn't realize that need the adapter until they really need one.
 
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Get electricians to install 80A wiring. Problem solved.
It's really a resource issue. Copper is expensive. The 4/3 cable to cross my garage cost over $400. 3 phase electricity was developed not only because it's better for motors, but because sharing the neutral among 3 phases reduces the amount of material needed for the return current, and requires about 25% less conducting material to carry the same amount of power. This really matters when you're trying to carry lots of power (i.e. to an EV charging station).
...until he found out that left the adapter at home and now he is stranded in the middle of nowhere

Never mind the people that don't have the adapter and didn't realize that need the adapter until they really need one.
We can play the "what if he left x at home?" game all day. If you leave stuff at home, you can't expect to charge on the go. In your example, "x" was the adapter. It could be a cell phone or credit card as well, which would also mean he'd be unable to charge. So just don't leave essential items at home. I don't know how you'd leave something at home though if it's supposed to always be in the vehicle (like an adapter should be).
 
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How many people even take their vehicles overseas?
This is the wrong question. It's not so much about individual people bringing a car that they already own from one country to another. It's about secondary car markets, i.e. countries that import a lot of used vehicles. This isn't relevant to the US/Canada or Western Europe, but for a lot of the rest of the world it's a significant component of their local vehicle sales. As an example, in New Zealand, imported used cars make up more than 50% of their entire car market. That's right, more than half of all cars registered in NZ for the first time are used cars from other countries that were imported into NZ. The majority of those used cars coming from Japan. Now, in practice, Japanese EVs currently sold in Japan primarily use CHAdeMO, but the country is technically in the CCS type 1 group, along with North America. While New Zealand is CCS type 2. So, if/when Japan ever switches over to CCS there's going to be a major compatibility issue for the NZ import market.

This is going to play out in lots of different places all over the world.
 
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It was a publicly stunt.

There was NO WAY established automaker was EVER going to accept such a "deal" with the poison pill that Tesla threw in.
I should also mention/reiterate that Tesla worked very hard with both the J-1772 and CCS committees so they could use a standard product, however, the standards committees snubbed them by delaying ratification until after Tesla had to start shipping serious EVs. Clearly, from the very beginning they had no intention of providing a standard that Tesla (or anyone else serious about BEVs) could use.
 
It's really a resource issue. Copper is expensive. The 4/3 cable to cross my garage cost over $400. 3 phase electricity was developed not only because it's better for motors, but because sharing the neutral among 3 phases reduces the amount of material needed for the return current, and requires about 25% less conducting material to carry the same amount of power. This really matters when you're trying to carry lots of power (i.e. to an EV charging station).
So your solution to saving money is switched to a different standard, introducing another incompatiblity and replacing existing/upgrading existing equipment?

That's not saving money.

That's costing money.

We can play the "what if he left x at home?" game all day. If you leave stuff at home, you can't expect to charge on the go. In your example, "x" was the adapter.
You were the one playing the "what if" game all along.

It's far more likely that someone forgot the adapter at somewhere (home/office/charging station) than someone transporting his vehicle across the ocean to another continent.

It could be a cell phone or credit card as well, which would also mean he'd be unable to charge. So just don't leave essential items at home. I don't know how you'd leave something at home though if it's supposed to always be in the vehicle (like an adapter should be).
He doesn't need a cell phone or credit card. He can just use Plug and Charge.
 
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I should also mention/reiterate that Tesla worked very hard with both the J-1772 and CCS committees so they could use a standard product, however, the standards committees snubbed them by delaying ratification until after Tesla had to start shipping serious EVs. Clearly, from the very beginning they had no intention of providing a standard that Tesla (or anyone else serious about BEVs) could use.
Source?
 
This is the wrong question. It's not so much about individual people bringing a car that they already own from one country to another. It's about secondary car markets, i.e. countries that import a lot of used vehicles. This isn't relevant to the US/Canada or Western Europe, but for a lot of the rest of the world it's a significant component of their local vehicle sales. As an example, in New Zealand, imported used cars make up more than 50% of their entire car market. That's right, more than half of all cars registered in NZ for the first time are used cars from other countries that were imported into NZ. The majority of those used cars coming from Japan. Now, in practice, Japanese EVs currently sold in Japan primarily use CHAdeMO, but the country is technically in the CCS type 1 group, along with North America. While New Zealand is CCS type 2. So, if/when Japan ever switches over to CCS there's going to be a major compatibility issue for the NZ import market.

This is going to play out in lots of different places all over the world.
The countries importing used vehicle can use the same standard as the countries that they are importing from.
 
One semi-public meeting that I attended between Plug-In America, several charging companies (mainly Chargepoint - then Coulomb Technologies), and Tesla. Tesla definitely expressed their frustration and desire for a common, useful standard.
My other sources, which showed longer, sustained frustration by Tesla, unfortunately, can't go on the internet.
Being a production EV driver for over 2 decades, I've been exposed to quite a few things you newcomers haven't. Of course, a lot, including company attitudes, has changed over that time as well.
 
One semi-public meeting that I attended between Plug-In America, several charging companies (mainly Chargepoint - then Coulomb Technologies), and Tesla. Tesla definitely expressed their frustration and desire for a common, useful standard.
My other sources, which showed longer, sustained frustration by Tesla, unfortunately, can't go on the internet.
Being a production EV driver for over 2 decades, I've been exposed to quite a few things you newcomers haven't. Of course, a lot, including company attitudes, has changed over that time as well.
Do you have any verifiable sources?
 
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The countries importing used vehicle can use the same standard as the countries that they are importing from.
They also have new car sales which will conform to whatever CCS type the country has adopted in principle. I used New Zealand as an example because I was familiar with their numbers but for lots of countries the import of used cars isn't so monolithic, and they'll be importing used vehicles from North America and from Europe, as well as having new cars sold, etc. You can't hand-wave the problem away with just "use the same standard" because the whole point is that there isn't a uniform standard and there's probably not going to be one. This will only get worse in the future as China continues to grow in vehicle manufacturing and their GB/T "standard' EVs start to make their way into the international used car market.

It's always going to be cheaper to import from everywhere and just live in a world of cheap adapters, instead of restricting import sources to only those that conform to your local EV standard plug. CCS isn't a panacea.
 
They also have new car sales which will conform to whatever CCS type the country has adopted in principle. I used New Zealand as an example because I was familiar with their numbers but for lots of countries the import of used cars isn't so monolithic, and they'll be importing used vehicles from North America and from Europe, as well as having new cars sold, etc. You can't hand-wave the problem away with just "use the same standard" because the whole point is that there isn't a uniform standard and there's probably not going to be one. This will only get worse in the future as China continues to grow in vehicle manufacturing and their GB/T "standard' EVs start to make their way into the international used car market.

It's always going to be cheaper to import from everywhere and just live in a world of cheap adapters, instead of restricting import sources to only those that conform to your local EV standard plug. CCS isn't a panacea.
Could you imagine an argument like this?

North America should switch to CCS2 so that 15+ years from now, black people in Africa would have an easier time using our old vehicles.

It's a problem for the importing countries, not the exporting countries, to figure out
 
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