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International Electric-Car Charging-Plug Standards

Jeff N

Active Member
Oct 31, 2011
2,696
4,376
Remember, also, that the SAE J-1772 committee, originally was trying to limit charging to 16 amps (~3.3kW). This was driven by GM's push to require an ICE for any long distance driving, ie the Volt.

The J1772 standard goes back to the mid-1990s before Tesla even existed. The 1996 version of the standard and it’s associated AVCON conductive plug design already supported 32A AC charging (on a 40A circuit) which is 7.7 kW at 240V.

The later upgrade of J1772 around 2010 to use a new connector design in place of the older AVCON then upped the theoretical AC charging to 80A.

I can’t really believe your story that GM in the late 2000s was trying to reduce the AC charging specification to 16A from 32A out of some conspiracy to mandate ICE for long-range driving. If you have a verifiable source for that claim I’d love to see it….

The older 1996 version of J1772, which GM was closely involved in at the time, actually includes discussion and support for 400A “Level 3” AC charging and also using the same pins for 400A DC charging at up to 600V. However, this higher-powered charging was intended to be more fully-specified in a later update. In reality, that support was not commercially implemented at the time and the spec for 400A charging was not completed until many years later.

From the November 1996 stable version of J1772 describing the intended connector pins:

61E6A6BB-C932-402D-A767-4B602EFB735D.jpeg
 
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Earl

Member
Jan 22, 2014
569
781
USA
If you have a verifiable source for that claim I’d love to see it….
Unfortunately, all I have is recollection of the word of folks who were at the standards meetings in the late 2000's. Note that obstructionists at standards meetings seldom leave a lot of written evidence.
The other thing was to delay the ratification until after 2007 when Tesla had to commit to a charging connector for their Roadster which was planned for an early 2008 rollout (delayed, beginning the Tesla tradition, of course, until late 2008 :). Low power could (I'm just speculating here) have been secondary or "who ever needs to charge faster than 30 miles over night so why make the connectors so expensive.
It's all ancient history now. We just need to figure out how to move forward with so many incompatible standards.
I used the AVCONS quite a bit in the early Roadster days in California with the AVCON-to-NEMA 14-50 adapter from the EAA.
 
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Jeff N

Active Member
Oct 31, 2011
2,696
4,376
I used the AVCONS quite a bit in the early Roadster days in California with the AVCON-to-NEMA 14-50 adapter from the EAA.
Yeah, I should have gotten one of those AVCON-to-J1772 adapter boxes that I think Ron Freund was building at EAA. We had AVCON charging cables and even an old small paddle inductive charger at the Sun Microsystems campus in Santa Clara where I was working back in the early 2010s. . Instead, I settled for sharing 120V outdoor outlets with too many other people. After 2-3 years they put in ChargePoint units.
 
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tps5352

Active Member
Supporting Member
If I’m was new model 3 using CCS2, how can I use with GB/T?
Any one knew it?

See these Tesla-China website pages:
请参阅以下特斯拉中国网站页面:
These adapters made by Tesla should allow a car with a CCS2 charge-port (as sold in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Hong Kong , and Macao) to use GB/T charging equipment in mainland China.

特斯拉制造的这些适配器应该允许带有 CCS2 充电端口的汽车(在欧洲、澳大利亚、新西兰、台湾、香港和澳门销售)在中国大陆使用 GB/T 充电设备。


(Translations made using Google.)
 
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tps5352

Active Member
Supporting Member
That seems to be only for legacy S/X with the Custom Type 2 plug.
Nothing DC for HK 3/Y with CCS2? Just the AC Type 2 adapter

Oh, yes. I see what you mean.

The older Models S and X with Type 2 port can be powered by the GM/T-to-Type 2 DC adapter.

And the Models 3 & Y and Models S & X with CCS2 ports can accept AC power through the upper (Type 2) part of their CCS2 ports. But I am reminded that they cannot accept DC power through that upper (Type 2) part of their CCS2 ports.

Darn. Easy to get confused about this. Check this summary out.

Tesla Adapters for Type 2- and CCS2-port Cars in Mainland China

For newer, CCS2-port-outfitted cars (e.g., now all 2022+ models from Europe, Oceania, Taiwan, and Hong Kong):

GB/T-to-Type 2 AC Adapter

China Nat Std AC Adapter.jpg + Europe 2021+ Model X CCS2 Port - 2.jpg = SUCCESS (adapter fits physically and provides AC power through upper portion of CCS2-port)

but

GB/T-to-Type 2 DC Adapter

China Nat Std DC Adapter.jpg + Europe 2021+ Model X CCS2 Port - 2.jpg = FAILURE (fits, but DC power cannot pass through upper portion of CCS2-port)




Whereas for older, Type 2-port-outfitted Models S & X (e.g., pre-2022 cars from Europe, Oceania, Taiwan, and Hong Kong):

GB/T-to-Type 2 AC Adapter

China Nat Std AC Adapter.jpg + Europe Model S Type 2 Mennekes Port.jpg = SUCCESS (fits and provides AC power through Type 2-port)

and

GB/T-to-Type 2 DC Adapter

China Nat Std DC Adapter.jpg + Europe Model S Type 2 Mennekes Port.jpg = SUCCESS (fits and provides DC power through Type 2-port)




Take away lessons: Changes by countries and companies to charging standards are probably inevitable, but can be inconvenient or worse for drivers of older cars.
 
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The best we can hope for is unified per continent. We are already too far along, where different large regions of the world have established infrastructure and plug types, where Type1 and Type2 are totally fine for where they are and are not going to change.
And yet we have a dozen versions of USB plugs and jacks.

IOW, it will change, because inefficient and expensive to what it can be.
 
The best we can hope for is unified per continent. We are already too far along, where different large regions of the world have established infrastructure and plug types, where Type1 and Type2 are totally fine for where they are and are not going to change.
The next generation of connector will likely be unified. Think mobile 3G (UMTS vs EVDO which was never resolved) and it wasn't until a new generation of mobile standards (4G LTE) that everything converged.
 
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I find it fascinating how many people are wanting to equate communication standards, which have to do with very fine timing and ever-increasing speed improvements, to simple energy delivery, as if they are going to behave the same way.
There's generally a desire to make things backwards compatible, up until the point where you have to change them so much that you might as well just throw everything out and start over. When we have a need for multi megawatt charging, none of the old stuff will work, no amount of re-engineering the pins will make the connectors not melt, etc. At that point, people will just toss out the old stuff and start over, and there will be a set of adapters to get the old cars to work with the new standards. The same thing happened with NTSC (made to be backwards compatible with the old black and white TV) to ATSC (different enough that they just started over and gave anyone who wanted to keep using an old TV a converter box).
 
There's generally a desire to make things backwards compatible, up until the point where you have to change them so much that you might as well just throw everything out and start over. When we have a need for multi megawatt charging, none of the old stuff will work, no amount of re-engineering the pins will make the connectors not melt, etc. At that point, people will just toss out the old stuff and start over, and there will be a set of adapters to get the old cars to work with the new standards. The same thing happened with NTSC (made to be backwards compatible with the old black and white TV) to ATSC (different enough that they just started over and gave anyone who wanted to keep using an old TV a converter box).
Exactly.
The changes to charging equipment is rapidly evolving, the old hardware is already too limiting.
 

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