IRS weighs in on tax rebate, mostly bad news for Model Y

[Snow Drift]

They are 4WD, under 6000 pounds GVWR, and meet at least 4 of the 5 clearance requirements in section B(2). Therefore they are non-passenger utility vehicles as defined by this section of code, and eligible for the $80k MSRP limit.

ID.4 does not qualify:

FAIL MUST BE >6,000 lbs (ID.4 AWD Pro = 5,908 yet it got $80k approval)

FAIL AND needs 4:

FAIL 18.7 deg (i) Approach angle of not less than 28 degrees.
PASS 18.3 deg (ii) Breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees.
PASS 20.2 deg (iii) Departure angle of not less than 20 degrees.
FAIL 17.2 cm (iv) Running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters.
Dunno (v) Front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each.

See here:
2022 Volkswagen ID.4 Technical Specificationshttps://www.vwidtalk.com › attachments › id4-vw...

 

[ucmndd]

ID.4 does not qualify:

It is not over 6,000 lbs (ID.4 AWD Pro = 5,.

Does not need to be over 6000 pounds if 4WD. Read closely.

AND needs 4:

FAIL 18.7 deg (i) Approach angle of not less than 28 degrees.
PASS 18.3 deg (ii) Breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees.
PASS 20.2 deg (iii) Departure angle of not less than 20 degrees.
FAIL 17.2 cm (iv) Running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters.
Dunno (v) Front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each.

See here:
2022 Volkswagen ID.4 Technical Specificationshttps://www.vwidtalk.com › attachments › id4-vw...

Please see my last post describing this, along with links to owners explaining the actual ground clearance of the ID.4.

It would be trivial for VW to raise the ground clearance of the ID.4 to >20cm by removing small plastic protrusions from the underbody. I’ll bet $100 to the charity of your choice that the 2023 ID.4 specs list ground clearance greater than 20cm.

 

[Snow Drift]

Because you say so ?

Because they are passenger vehicles. Dear lord they are normal cars for sale.

 

[Snow Drift]

Does not need to be over 6000 pounds if 4WD. Read closely.


Please see my last post describing this, along with links to owners explaining the actual ground clearance of the ID.4.

It would be trivial for VW to raise the ground clearance of the ID.4 to >20cm by removing small plastic protrusions from the underbody. I’ll bet $100 to the charity of your choice that the 2023 ID.4 specs list ground clearance greater than 20cm.

EDIT: if AWD = 4WD, and that prevents the lbs issue. Why isn’t the 5 seater Model Y and MME approved as SUVs under the NPV rules? Model Y ground clearance is taller than ID.4.

If 4WD is the only requirement, why isn’t the Model 3 AWD an SUV also?

…
Old post:

It does NOT have 4WD. Tell someone with 4WD that it’s the same as AWD. They are entirely different things.

The measurements are what is written and provided officially. Not what someone else finds after a modification. VW published the weight. Not me.

 

[ucmndd]

EDIT: if AWD = 4WD, and that prevents the lbs issue.

AWD vs 4WD is a distinction without a difference in this context. They are 100% the same.

Why isn’t the 5 seater Model Y and MME approved as SUVs under the NPV rules? Model Y ground clearance is taller than ID.4.

Model Y fails basically all the clearance requirements. Does not hit the 4/5 threshold.

If 4WD is the only requirement, why isn’t the Model 3 AWD an SUV also?

It is not the only requirement. The code is 4WD OR >6000 GVWR, AND the clearance requirements.

The measurements are what is written and provided officially. Not what someone else finds after a modification.

Can you find official ground clearance measurements for the 2023 ID.4? I can’t.

 

[Snow Drift]

AWD vs 4WD is a distinction without a difference in this context. They are 100% the same.


Model Y fails basically all the clearance requirements. Does not hit the 4/5 threshold.

It is not the only requirement. The code is 4WD OR >6000 GVWR, AND the clearance requirements.

Can you find official ground clearance measurements for the 2023 ID.4? I can’t.

4WD, or

OR

That means if you are 4WD you qualify regardless of anything else.

So Model 3 and Model Y and MME all qualify for $80k MSRP.

 

[Snow Drift]

 

[ucmndd]

4WD, or

OR

That means if you are 4WD you qualify regardless of anything else.

No. must meet requirements in section 1 AND section 2.

So Model 3 and Model Y and MME all qualify for $80k MSRP.

No.

 

[ucmndd]

View attachment 890891

If you find this to be an official source we’re probably done here.

 

[Snow Drift]

No. must meet requirements in section 1 AND section 2.
View attachment 890892

No.

ID.4 fails part 2. So explain that?

Here is 2022, I've provided it multiple times. Max ground clearance is 6.8"
2022 Volkswagen ID.4 Technical Specificationshttps://www.vwidtalk.com › attachments › id4-vw...

Here is the 2023 Press Kit. They make no mention of a new-for-2023 ground clearance.

https://media.vw.com/en-us/press-kits/2023-id4-press-kit

 

[ucmndd]

ID.4 fails part 2. So explain that?

I did. I expect the Chattanooga assembled 2023 ID.4 will officially have >20cm of ground clearance. I even said $100 to the charity of your choice if I’m wrong about that.

Here is 2022, I've provided it multiple times. Max ground clearance is 6.8"
2022 Volkswagen ID.4 Technical Specificationshttps://www.vwidtalk.com › attachments › id4-vw...

2022 model year is irrelevant to the discussion. VW only submitted the 2023 model for consideration to the IRS.

Anyway. I do think we’re done here. I can only say the same thing so many times. Happy New Year.

 

[Snow Drift]

I did. I expect the Chattanooga assembled 2023 ID.4 will officially have >20cm of ground clearance. I even said $100 to the charity of your choice if I’m wrong about that.


2022 model year is irrelevant to the discussion. VW only submitted the 2023 model for consideration to the IRS.

Anyway. I do think we’re done here. I can only say the same thing so many times. Happy New Year.

2023 Owner's manual says 6"

VW Digital Owners Manual

api.ownersmanualvw.com

Use this VIN 1V2GNPE85PC003202 (2023 ID.4 AWD Pro S)

Search "Dimensions"


**Happy New Year**

 

[exxxviii]

Tesla, GM, Ford, etc. will sue. The government will lose. They always lose, because they cannot afford the good lawyers, and they do not have a clear standard they can defend. It is merely a matter of time. Everything will fall under the $80K threshold, because that will be the only objective outcome. I have many years of government contracting experience. These things always devolve to the least common denominator when the government does something this stupid.

 

[Patrick66]

No. must meet requirements in section 1 AND section 2.


No.
View attachment 890897

All legal outlines I am familiar with would require (2) to be a subset of (1)ii for your interpretation to be correct; both (1) AND (2) need to be satisfied.

 

[Snow Drift]

Who knows what is correct. For all we know they used another requirement.

I still think (and hope) it is a typo. Or else the Model Y will continue to be over priced.

Or, 5 seat AWD will be discontinued.

 

[SageBrush]

Because they are passenger vehicles. Dear lord they are normal cars for sale.

Circular reasoning is sooo much more convincing

 

[flgatorfan]

Tesla, GM, Ford, etc. will sue. The government will lose. They always lose, because they cannot afford the good lawyers, and they do not have a clear standard they can defend. It is merely a matter of time. Everything will fall under the $80K threshold, because that will be the only objective outcome. I have many years of government contracting experience. These things always devolve to the least common denominator when the government does something this stupid.

In this case that was clearly the intended result of the legislation anyway, idk why they decided to apply these stupid rules instead of going with the EPA definitions.

 

[randmness]

2023 Owner's manual says 6"

VW Digital Owners Manual

api.ownersmanualvw.com

Not to throw a wrench in this, but I think the North American ID4 sits higher than the EU ones. If you go over on their forums, people are measuring the ground clearance for US/CA models at 8-8.6”. Seems like it’s slightly lower at the wheel wells, but I’m curious if that goes into the equation.

Ignoring that, I’m not really sure what the IRS can do other than to use the SUV definitions currently used for CAFE. The Mach E pretty much has the same ground clearance as a Model 3.

 

[Daekwan]

Oddly enough it appears Jalopnik of all places provides the explanation for whats considered an SUV (although it seems some of you already figured it out): Every Car Looks Like This Thanks to a Gigantic Regulatory Loophole

 

[SageBrush]

^^ Is "AWD" equivalent to "4WD" ?