Is a 60kWh pack large enough?

[jerry33]

For these reasons I just don't see a compelling reason for anyone to go with a 60 over an 85 unless the 60 is substantially less money. Don't get me wrong. The 60's are still fabulous cars but with prices where they're at on both models, I just don't see the sense in going with a 60 any longer.

There are several old threads like this about regrets for 60. About half the 60 purchasers indicate they would get an 85 if they had to do it over again. Range is a lot like disk space--there's no such thing as too much (at least until we get to 300 to 500 kWh batteries.)

 

[whitex]

Nobody has ever been like "gee, I have too much range and the car charges too fast and the warranty gives me too much comfort".

That type of argument can be used to justify anything. Is saying "Nobody has ever been like "gee, that Veyron if too fast"" a good reason to buy a Veyron over Model S (and yes, a Veyron is faster than P90DL)?

I had an S60, never had range anxiety. Actually, I don't think my car's rated range ever fell below 50 miles, I charged to 90% every day. My commute is ~50miles. In almost 2 years and 12K miles the battery degradation was unnoticeable. Is 85KWh better? Yes. Do you need it? It depends on your needs. Is 90KWh even better, absolutely, it even comes with the new fuse and contactor which came out of the "1 million mile drivetrain" research. Would I pay $22K to upgrade from 85 to 90? No way. It's all about cost vs. benefit. Based on the OP's description of the driving needs, 60KWh will be plenty. In my 2 years of ownership I only had to change my plans twice because of the Model S range. Ironically, both times happened recently while I had 85KWh already - 60 would have left me in the very same situation, in both situations I would have needed a 120KWh battery in order to avoid changing plans.

If it was me, I would pick a 2014 S60 over 2012 S85 for example for the same options, same mileage and same price, unless I was worried about the S60 drivetrain warranty expiring because of the miles rather than the 8 years time limit. 2014 could have newer battery technology (yes, the early "A" batteries supercharged slower, so Signature S85 not much better than Production S60 there) and other improvements, plus up to 2 years less wear (so 8 year warranty lasts longer). If the choice was S60 loaded with features I want vs. stripped down S85 and my driving needs were as OP describes, I would absolutely go with the S60.

Buckeye2320, based on your described needs an S60 will more than suffice.
Bottom line is consider your needs and how much the extra range would be worth to you, then look at the available options and make the decision.

 

[GSP]

I am looking for some feedback on the below

My wife is looking for a new car, and I was thinking about getting here a Model S CPO/Inventory Model S 60. She drives about 40 Mile per day round trip. We have a NEMA 10-30 (240V/24A) circuit in the garage already. This would get us around 180+ Miles of charge over night. There is no charging station or EV Stations near her work that she could use if needed. The speed limit on the roads that she travels does not exceed 50mph. Will a Model S 60 be OK for her? Or does it make sense to get an 85?

Thanks for the feedback?

60 kWh should be fine. I still would check prices for 85s to see if they are significantly more expensive or not.

Try to find a new or used 10-30 (or 14-30) adapter before the supply completely dries up. Otherwise I would upgrade the 10-30 outlet and wiring to 14-50 to be on the safe side.

Dual chargers will only help if you are not using Superchargers and find 70-80 amp J1772s or HPWC destination chargers. Consider the $500 Chademo adapter instead of the $2000 extra charger. Check out Chademo, HPWC, and high amp J1772 in the areas you may travel.

Good Luck,

GSP

 

[2krazykats]

I would urge you to look at the 70Ds ( or 70S if you don't want dual motors) as well. If time is on your side, the 60 is fine and you don't plan on taking long trips often. Based on my experience with a 400 mile trip yesterday in my 70D, you have to be aware of he extra time you'll need to charge during those trips. For every day driving, 60 should be fine. I went thru a similar cost/benefit analysis when I was weighing the 70D vs 85D. I could not justify the $10k price premium for an 85 so I bought a 70 and during the trip, I did wish for the 85 at one point when we had to drive out of our way to reach a supercharger to get us to another SC that was on our route.

 

[jerry33]

Would I pay $22K to upgrade from 85 to 90? No way.

Now 85 to 120 would be very tempting.

 

[jerry33]

I would urge you to look at the 70Ds ( or 70S if you don't want dual motors) as well. If time is on your side, the 60 is fine and you don't plan on taking long trips often. Based on my experience with a 400 mile trip yesterday in my 70D, you have to be aware of he extra time you'll need to charge during those trips.

Typically the extra charging time is not much. Driving in good weather from DFW to Seattle, most of our inter-day stops were 15 minutes or less. The trick is to only charge enough to get to the next SC plus a bit extra because the charge rate slows down as the battery becomes full. If you do five segments per day, it goes something like this when traveling on an SC only route (example is DFW to Lincoln):

Start with full battery
Drive 175 km (110 mi)
Charge 15 minutes. Ardmore
Drive 260 km (160 mi)
Charge 15 minutes. Perry
Drive 170 km (105 mi)
Lunch stop, charge 45 minutes while eating. Wichita
Drive 150 km (95 mi)
Charge 30 minutes.
Drive 310 km (195 mi)
Overnight stop charge fully.

That gets 1065 km ( 650 mi) a day, which makes for a relaxing drive.

 

[2krazykats]

Typically the extra charging time is not much. Driving in good weather from DFW to Seattle, most of our inter-day stops were 15 minutes or less. The trick is to only charge enough to get to the next SC plus a bit extra because the charge rate slows down as the battery becomes full. If you do five segments per day, it goes something like this when traveling on an SC only route (example is DFW to Lincoln):...

Here was our problem: The distance from the SC in our area to our destination is 109 miles. We could not make the round trip until we drove 20 miles in the opposite direction to another SC to charge there so we could go back. It wasn't ideal but we were able to do it. I just didn't like having to drive out of my way to charge. I think the 85 would've gotten me back to the SC w/o having to do the side trip to the closer SC.

That being said, $10k premium is not worth an extra 40 miles driving out of our way. And we don't plan on making trips like this very often. Most trips will be in the city and charging at home.

 

[InsaneDriver]

I think this is great advice. The 60 appears as if it will work for your needs, so weighing the options/mileage/warranty/year you can get on any of the available vehicles seems like where the decision process comes in.

That type of argument can be used to justify anything. Is saying "Nobody has ever been like "gee, that Veyron if too fast"" a good reason to buy a Veyron over Model S (and yes, a Veyron is faster than P90DL)?

I had an S60, never had range anxiety. Actually, I don't think my car's rated range ever fell below 50 miles, I charged to 90% every day. My commute is ~50miles. In almost 2 years and 12K miles the battery degradation was unnoticeable. Is 85KWh better? Yes. Do you need it? It depends on your needs. Is 90KWh even better, absolutely, it even comes with the new fuse and contactor which came out of the "1 million mile drivetrain" research. Would I pay $22K to upgrade from 85 to 90? No way. It's all about cost vs. benefit. Based on the OP's description of the driving needs, 60KWh will be plenty. In my 2 years of ownership I only had to change my plans twice because of the Model S range. Ironically, both times happened recently while I had 85KWh already - 60 would have left me in the very same situation, in both situations I would have needed a 120KWh battery in order to avoid changing plans.

If it was me, I would pick a 2014 S60 over 2012 S85 for example for the same options, same mileage and same price, unless I was worried about the S60 drivetrain warranty expiring because of the miles rather than the 8 years time limit. 2014 could have newer battery technology (yes, the early "A" batteries supercharged slower, so Signature S85 not much better than Production S60 there) and other improvements, plus up to 2 years less wear (so 8 year warranty lasts longer). If the choice was S60 loaded with features I want vs. stripped down S85 and my driving needs were as OP describes, I would absolutely go with the S60.

Buckeye2320, based on your described needs an S60 will more than suffice.
Bottom line is consider your needs and how much the extra range would be worth to you, then look at the available options and make the decision.

 

[golfski]

As a 60 owner in a moderately 'colder' climate, I think a 60 is plenty for what you need. I drive 70 miles roundtrip and can do it twice in a day if i needed too. I have also done 500-800 mi road trips, while the charging may be a little slower - unless you are traveling constantly won't add up to be worth the extra $. An S60 with a CHaDeMo adapter is plenty worthy for road tripping anywhere a 70, 85 or 90 can go.

 

[islandbayy]

My OPINION:
I have driven a Model S for just a hair under 80,000 miles.
About half that was in a 60 and half in a 85. I do many road trips. Lots of freeway.

I can honestly say, in my situation, and opinion, even with the rapidly expanding supercharger network, I'd never ever, again, get anything less then the absolute biggest battery available. In fact, my replacement Model S is due in a few weeks, and it is a 90D. Maximum Range. I could never go down to a 70 or a 60 or a 40. If you can afford it, get the largest battery available.

Also need to factor in degradation over time if your in it for the long haul.

 

[rocketdallas]

I think you'll be fine with the 60. I bought a 60 just over a year ago, and made the choice knowing I do lots of mileage (usually 25k plus each year) and like taking road trips with my family. The key for me was realizing most of my driving is in the same areas, along the same routes, and with easy accessibility to charging. The 60 was the rational choice for me, gaining the opportunity to enjoy all the positives of Model S ownership, reduce ownership and maintenance expenses for my habits of driving, while lessening the financial risk of going full electric. I evaluated my options based on my dally driving needs and considered which model would satisfy what I need at the lowest expense as a daily commuter.

I have done more mileage in this car than any I've owned before, hitting 36k in just about a year, and only once on a road trip did I worry about not having enough range. Still made it, though, and I never worry about getting anywhere.

Having said that, I have enjoyed my car so much and no longer worry about going fully electric that I plan to pick up a quicker Model S (maybe a CPO P85 or something) for more fun. We will still keep the 60, though, and plan to use it regularly. Hope this helps.

 

[Mike K]

That type of argument can be used to justify anything. Is saying "Nobody has ever been like "gee, that Veyron if too fast"" a good reason to buy a Veyron over Model S (and yes, a Veyron is faster than P90DL)?

I had an S60, never had range anxiety. Actually, I don't think my car's rated range ever fell below 50 miles, I charged to 90% every day. My commute is ~50miles. In almost 2 years and 12K miles the battery degradation was unnoticeable. Is 85KWh better? Yes. Do you need it? It depends on your needs. Is 90KWh even better, absolutely, it even comes with the new fuse and contactor which came out of the "1 million mile drivetrain" research. Would I pay $22K to upgrade from 85 to 90? No way. It's all about cost vs. benefit. Based on the OP's description of the driving needs, 60KWh will be plenty. In my 2 years of ownership I only had to change my plans twice because of the Model S range. Ironically, both times happened recently while I had 85KWh already - 60 would have left me in the very same situation, in both situations I would have needed a 120KWh battery in order to avoid changing plans.

If it was me, I would pick a 2014 S60 over 2012 S85 for example for the same options, same mileage and same price, unless I was worried about the S60 drivetrain warranty expiring because of the miles rather than the 8 years time limit. 2014 could have newer battery technology (yes, the early "A" batteries supercharged slower, so Signature S85 not much better than Production S60 there) and other improvements, plus up to 2 years less wear (so 8 year warranty lasts longer). If the choice was S60 loaded with features I want vs. stripped down S85 and my driving needs were as OP describes, I would absolutely go with the S60.

Buckeye2320, based on your described needs an S60 will more than suffice.
Bottom line is consider your needs and how much the extra range would be worth to you, then look at the available options and make the decision.

I see what you're saying but you basically ignored all the pluses of the larger battery except for range. Would he be fine with the range of the 60kwh car considering his driving? It sounds like yes, that wouldn't be an issue but when you factor in having a faster car (if you care), additional range, the unlimited mile warranty, faster charging, fewer cycles on the battery for any given mileage meaning slower degradation, the fact that when it does experience degradation it will be approaching the range of a 60kwh car versus the range of a 40 and then on top of all that you look and the price difference is often as little as $2,000 - $3,000, for me it's hard to ignore all the pluses, even if you're completely taking range out of the equation. Not only that but it's going to have higher resale value and it's going to be easier to sell second hand than a 60.

I guess it depends on how long the OP plans on owning the car, how many miles they're going to put on it, how often they might find themselves taking advantage of the extra range, etc. For me, a 60 would suit me just fine. I average maybe 50 miles of rated range a day. I wouldn't ever consider the 60 though. As nice a car as it is, once you're spending 55k on a car, another 3 - 4k to get all the pluses of the 85kwh battery seems like a no brainer to me. Obviously not everyone sees the value proposition though.

I guess for me it would be if I'm hard drive shopping and someone said I can have a 6tb hard drive for $50 with a 6 month warranty or for $55 I can have an 8tb hard drive that's faster and has a 2 year warranty. Who wouldn't grab the 8TB hard drive in that scenario?

 

[Btrflyl8e]

I've driven my 60 for almost 3 years and 46k miles so far. My daily commute is about 55 miles round trip, on mostly 45-55mph roads. Granted I'm in warm FL, but it's always been more than enough range. I don't even bother to look anymore.

In my previous car that I drove for 5 years, I never once took it on a road trip. I've driven my 60 to Miami from Tampa, to Charlotte, NC twice, and to Boston this past June! There was only one gap that was a challenge, St Augustine to Savannah, and that is now solved with the opening of the Kingsland, GA SC.

Get a loaded 60 and enjoy the crap out of it. I know I have!

 

[whitex]

I guess for me it would be if I'm hard drive shopping and someone said I can have a 6tb hard drive for $50 with a 6 month warranty or for $55 I can have an 8tb hard drive that's faster and has a 2 year warranty. Who wouldn't grab the 8TB hard drive in that scenario?

Not exactly, the warranty is the same unless you plan to drive over 125,000 miles before 8 years is up (it doesn't sound like the OP plans to put a lot of miles on the car). Than means that buying a newer S60 for low mileage driving would actually get you longer warranty than an older S85. As for faster charging, that only applies to supercharging (not home, destination, or public charging) and even for supercharging an older "A" type battery is also slower, so a newer S60 battery may be just as fast as older S85. As for significant degradation, if it happens during the warranty you are covered, if it happens after, by 2020 or later there should be higher capacity batteries available (today you can upgrade for $22K to 90KWh but prices are expected to drop) - whether you're upgrading because your 60 failed or your 85 failed, either way you're going for a new battery.

It's a cost vs. benefit issue, would you rather have 2012 "A" type 85KWh battery or a 2014 "B" type 60KWhr battery? 85KWh is older, and older technology (slower supercharging), and it's warranty expires 2 years earlier. Degradation doesn't just occur with miles, also with time, and the older battery is more than twice as old. Based on the requirements of the OP, IMHO he should go with the newest S60 he can afford, then find a similar vintage S85 and decide whether the extra range and supercharging speed is worth the price premium. A quick example from CPO cars: slightly lower optioned S85 (no sub-zero) with 70% more miles costs $6,100 more than the S60 of similar VIN (actually slightly newer).

S85+McRed+Pano+Wood+Tech+Supercharging+21Kmiles -price $57,200: 85 kWh Model S P41047 | Tesla Motors
S60+McRed+Panp+Yacht+Tech+Supercharging+Subzero+12Kmiles price $63,300: 60 kWh Model S P43654 | Tesla Motors

 

[hingisfan]

Not exactly, the warranty is the same unless you plan to drive over 125,000 miles before 8 years is up (it doesn't sound like the OP plans to put a lot of miles on the car). Than means that buying a newer S60 for low mileage driving would actually get you longer warranty than an older S85. As for faster charging, that only applies to supercharging (not home, destination, or public charging) and even for supercharging an older "A" type battery is also slower, so a newer S60 battery may be just as fast as older S85. As for significant degradation, if it happens during the warranty you are covered, if it happens after, by 2020 or later there should be higher capacity batteries available (today you can upgrade for $22K to 90KWh but prices are expected to drop) - whether you're upgrading because your 60 failed or your 85 failed, either way you're going for a new battery.

It's a cost vs. benefit issue, would you rather have 2012 "A" type 85KWh battery or a 2014 "B" type 60KWhr battery? 85KWh is older, and older technology (slower supercharging), and it's warranty expires 2 years earlier. Degradation doesn't just occur with miles, also with time, and the older battery is more than twice as old. Based on the requirements of the OP, IMHO he should go with the newest S60 he can afford, then find a similar vintage S85 and decide whether the extra range and supercharging speed is worth the price premium. A quick example from CPO cars: slightly lower optioned S85 (no sub-zero) with 70% more miles costs $6,100 more than the S60 of similar VIN (actually slightly newer).

S85+McRed+Pano+Wood+Tech+Supercharging+21Kmiles -price $57,200: 85 kWh Model S P41047 | Tesla Motors
S60+McRed+Panp+Yacht+Tech+Supercharging+Subzero+12Kmiles price $63,300: 60 kWh Model S P43654 | Tesla Motors

I have a 60, but comparing those two, I'd pay the 6k for the 85 in a heartbeat!

 

[smac]

Buckeye I have an S60 and use it primarily as a commuting car. If this is all you will use it for, then in this context I'd save your money.... put the savings in a pot for when your car is due replacement and get a 90D

Seriously range and recharge times will be absolutely fine for this sort of use, and if like me vacations are done by flying and you have a suitable ICE for the odd long trip in the household already, an S60 might be all the range you need.

 

[JonathanD]

S60 owner since mid 2014 here. Longest trip I've done without charging is Tustin, CA to Camarillo, CA and back (85 miles each way). I played it a bit on the conservative side in terms of highway speeds, but that's easy to do (just go a little bit slower and you can track your efficiency in real time). Kinda fun when you get used to using the interface. On a normal day I drive much less (15-20 miles a day) so I just charge it up to 50-75% and don't even think about it.

 

[NewCow]

Thanks for the feedback.

Would it make sense to get the Dual Chargers?

I have looked at 60s and 85's and with the amount of driving she does, I want to try to stay under $55K. There are a few 85's below 55K, but most of those are in California. She has a parking garage that she parks in for work, so that should help with the winter weather and not impact the range that much. Won't take as long as to warm up the car after work.

I recently ordered a CPO S60 for $50k and am anxiously awaiting delivery. While I wait I've been looking into all sorts of things, including whether or not dual chargers made sense. I'm personally not going to install dual chargers since I think it's hard to justify the $2k cost for me personally. I work from home so the car will be charging like all the time, and my regular commute is taking kids to school and just local errands etc. I had an electrician come by and I plan on using the regular 40 amp that most people get, and my house's electrical panel might not be able to handle the load of the 80 amp so dual charging is kind of moot for at-home. Most of the destination chargers around me are also only up to 40 amp, so I'm passing on dual chargers.

 

[Btrflyl8e]

Only once in nearly 3 years did I sort of wish I had gotten dual chargers. Not enough to justify the cost for me!

 

[whitex]

I have a 60, but comparing those two, I'd pay the 6k for the 85 in a heartbeat!

Actually it's closer to $7K ($1K for sub zero), which is ~$10K Canadian. If that's the case, why didn't you buy it in the first place? Back when you purchased your 60 the price difference was probably less than $10K Can$ between S60+supercharging and S85 with included supercharging, since Canadian dollar was stronger. Did your driving needs change after you bought it, did you underestimate how much you drive, or did you overestimate the real range, especially in Ontario winters?