-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
I've been watching this thread with some interest as the OP is a fellow Calgarian and is on the other side of this situation from me (I'm about to sell). Obviously I have a different perspective on the relative merits of US cars being available in Canada. I have a few points on this:
Firstly, assuming that Tesla is the reason why US cars can't be imported, I can't see how this has any impact on their profit. If someone in Calgary manages to buy a used car in the US, then that car is not available for someone in the US to buy. Either way, Tesla potentially loses the sale of a new car. There is no more profit in selling cars in Canada than in the US, in fact may be less profitable as it seems that building a Canadian market car may be more expensive (due to the differences mentioned above). It might be that Tesla wants to show more new car sales in Canada but that is pure conjecture. If Tesla was prepared to start supporting imports, they could probably make some money off the modification process to allow US cars in Canada (though I know that technically SCs are not profit centres) but this would involve some ramp up and or some reduction in service levels for their existing customers. From my perspective I would prefer they concentrate on doing service.
From the point of view of a seller, opening up the market to allow sales from other jurisdictions creates an unbalanced playing field, or at least gives the impression of much better deals being available if only we were able to import. To use my specific example, in Calgary, Alberta the total cost of my car (no EV incentive) including 5% GST was $146,670 (all numbers in CDN). If I had bought this car in Washington state, I would have paid no sales tax bringing my outlay down to: $138,542.00. Like most people in the US I would have got a $7,500(USD) EV incentive which would be roughly $8,400 CDN off the price leaving: $130,142.00 as my total outlay. Bottom line is that the car cost me about $16,000 more than if I had bought it in Washington. If I now list my 8 month old car for $120,000 in Calgary, Calgarians would be comparing with the total cost of ownership for a new car of $146,670 (if they could buy this configuration any more) which is a savings of $26,670 which MIGHT be palatable. In Washington someone selling a similar used car would have to show this kind of reduction relative to a new car cost of $130,142 so they would necessarily have to drop their price to something in the $100-104 CDN range (somewhere around 90K US). In both cases the sellers would see similar depreciation in terms of the delta between original outlay and money for the used car. Now if a Calgarian looks at the price in Washington, it makes any Calgary cars for sale look overpriced. Obviously this can apply to inter-province sales too but I think things balance out a bit more.
Putting this analysis aside, I think that even if Tesla was allowing/enabling the transfer of US cars to Canada, the savings for a buyer (if any) would be negligible. From what I've seen many of the asking prices in the US are very similar to the asking prices in Canada, and there are only a few aggressively priced cars. While the number of sweet deals may be greater than in Canada, there are 10 times as many potential buyers, so to nail down such a deal from Canada (which would presumably be more hassle for the seller) is very unlikely. Even if a good deal was won, by the time you've converted CDN to USD, dealt with the cost of modification and certification and shipped the car, plus GST, duty excise tax etc. , I can't imagine the deal would look as sweet. Also if the state in question requires tax on used car purchases, my impression is that you would actually pay GST on top of the whole price (rather than getting a credit).
Interesting times indeed.
Firstly, assuming that Tesla is the reason why US cars can't be imported, I can't see how this has any impact on their profit. If someone in Calgary manages to buy a used car in the US, then that car is not available for someone in the US to buy. Either way, Tesla potentially loses the sale of a new car. There is no more profit in selling cars in Canada than in the US, in fact may be less profitable as it seems that building a Canadian market car may be more expensive (due to the differences mentioned above). It might be that Tesla wants to show more new car sales in Canada but that is pure conjecture. If Tesla was prepared to start supporting imports, they could probably make some money off the modification process to allow US cars in Canada (though I know that technically SCs are not profit centres) but this would involve some ramp up and or some reduction in service levels for their existing customers. From my perspective I would prefer they concentrate on doing service.
From the point of view of a seller, opening up the market to allow sales from other jurisdictions creates an unbalanced playing field, or at least gives the impression of much better deals being available if only we were able to import. To use my specific example, in Calgary, Alberta the total cost of my car (no EV incentive) including 5% GST was $146,670 (all numbers in CDN). If I had bought this car in Washington state, I would have paid no sales tax bringing my outlay down to: $138,542.00. Like most people in the US I would have got a $7,500(USD) EV incentive which would be roughly $8,400 CDN off the price leaving: $130,142.00 as my total outlay. Bottom line is that the car cost me about $16,000 more than if I had bought it in Washington. If I now list my 8 month old car for $120,000 in Calgary, Calgarians would be comparing with the total cost of ownership for a new car of $146,670 (if they could buy this configuration any more) which is a savings of $26,670 which MIGHT be palatable. In Washington someone selling a similar used car would have to show this kind of reduction relative to a new car cost of $130,142 so they would necessarily have to drop their price to something in the $100-104 CDN range (somewhere around 90K US). In both cases the sellers would see similar depreciation in terms of the delta between original outlay and money for the used car. Now if a Calgarian looks at the price in Washington, it makes any Calgary cars for sale look overpriced. Obviously this can apply to inter-province sales too but I think things balance out a bit more.
Putting this analysis aside, I think that even if Tesla was allowing/enabling the transfer of US cars to Canada, the savings for a buyer (if any) would be negligible. From what I've seen many of the asking prices in the US are very similar to the asking prices in Canada, and there are only a few aggressively priced cars. While the number of sweet deals may be greater than in Canada, there are 10 times as many potential buyers, so to nail down such a deal from Canada (which would presumably be more hassle for the seller) is very unlikely. Even if a good deal was won, by the time you've converted CDN to USD, dealt with the cost of modification and certification and shipped the car, plus GST, duty excise tax etc. , I can't imagine the deal would look as sweet. Also if the state in question requires tax on used car purchases, my impression is that you would actually pay GST on top of the whole price (rather than getting a credit).
Interesting times indeed.
The Op is not about american cars to Canada. Its about used car prices vs buying brand new.....ie: used prices too high.
My first post was simply comparing to brand new. Most of the cars for sale right now used are the same price, roughly, as buying the same thing brand new, which is just insane.
I have mentioned many times that Tesla should stop blocking the import of US vehicles in to Canada. I get it that gpetti doesn't want to compete with american sellers who are on average much cheaper, but that doesn't make it right.
but truthfully, that's what the cars are worth. Factor in duty and exchange. It's a rapid depreciating asset and those in denial will soon learn the truth.
You can offer something for any price that you want. What it sells for is a different matter. When you've got 2/3 cars listed with minimal mileage and they're essentially the same as a new one, you'll get some buyers who don't want to wait. When you have 16-17 cars and there is step change between the new and used ones, you're going to get a price drop. But, it takes some time for the sellers to adjust their expectations. It's just the normal process of prices adjusting in the marketplace.
There are a lot folks out there (me included) who would have considered a used one at $30,000 less than current asking prices. But right now... heck, I'll buy new.
Jaff
Active Member
Jaff
Active Member
Again, agree completely...imo, these "early listed vehicles for sale" will need to come back to earth a bit...I think they will once we get closer to the delivery dates of the P85D's...
And there's a number advertising in the low 90s now. I suspect you're going to see most of them in the 80s within a month.
I doubt they'll drop into the 80's anytime soon. There is a whole other market that opens when the price drops, and it becomes larger with each drop. An educated person who didn't want to spend $120k+ for a new car might now be able to justify $90k given the TCO, or if they were waiting for a slightly used Model anyways. Maybe a better gauge is to ask somebody like In2Oil how much interest they have received since posting.
I think it's too early to tell. There aren't that many Model S' in Canada and the recent spike in Autotrader ads only represents those who wanted a D in the first place, we're temporarily unbalanced, but it won't last. Prices are always higher in Canada, partly due to supply and partly because importing rarely saves you a large amount of money. It's a terrible deal for Canadians. At least there's no dealer network colluding to keep the prices artificially high.
I think it's too early to tell. There aren't that many Model S' in Canada and the recent spike in Autotrader ads only represents those who wanted a D in the first place, we're temporarily unbalanced, but it won't last. Prices are always higher in Canada, partly due to supply and partly because importing rarely saves you a large amount of money. It's a terrible deal for Canadians. At least there's no dealer network colluding to keep the prices artificially high.
You may be right. But, my spidey sense tells me that you're going to have a few of them in the upper 80s within 2 weeks, and a bunch of them before Christmas. I'm not saying this is a good thing - just that I think it's likely.
I know of several which sold in the $80"s before this supply glut & before the new technology. Personally, I believe most of them are worth in the $80's & $90's at this point.
I suppose it's worth quantifying what the 'them' are. Are we talking S85's, P85's... P85+'s?
I also don't agreee with what they are going for, but it's a seller's market and there's minimal historical numbers to help develop used Model S pricing.
Someone I know here in the Ottawa area is selling a black 2012 Signature Model S P85, everything but child seat, with 11,000 km. I think his price range is fairly reasonable given the low mileage. (He's upgrading to P85D.) If anyone here is interested PM me and I'll put you in touch.
Jgdixon
Active Member
I still think it is people testing the market place. Until people like myself actually are ready to take delivery of their P85Ds there won't be many serious sellers out there except the dealers.
Jaff
Active Member
Similar threads
