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Is Autopilot at fault in this accident?

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by DanCar, Dec 30, 2020.

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Is Autopilot at fault in this accident?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    2.4%
  2. No

    71 vote(s)
    57.7%
  3. Maybe / Partially

    9 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Tesla driver, because driver is in control

    40 vote(s)
    32.5%
  1. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    "fault" is an interesting word when connected to car "accidents"
    Yes the truck was technically at fault.
    But when your car is out of commission do you feel better knowing the other guy was at fault - especially when you could have slowed down just little and avoided the collision completely.
    Personally I take the latter action
     
    • Like x 1
  2. sleepydoc

    sleepydoc Member

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    A few years ago there was a well publicized accident where a semi turned in front of a Tesla and it didn’t stop, killing the driver. (Reports were that he was watching a movie on his iPad.) at the time, I remember reading some explanations saying the auto pilot system only looks for objects up to 3-4 feet off the ground, so it was essentially looking under the semi trailer and not seeing anything.

    In the 4 months I’ve had my Model Y, I’ve noticed a similar phenomenon several times - if a semi is next to me it will ‘disappear’ at times because the sensors don’t see it.

    I wonder if this played a roll in this accident? Clearly the truck driver is at fault, as others have said, but that doesn’t mean the autopilot system can’t use some improvements.
     
  3. MikeHolliday

    MikeHolliday Member

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    Do you drive a Tesla? If I am not touching the Steering Wheel every 30 to 45 seconds it screams at me. If I am driving my Model Y in Autopilot and I cross a line without signaling it screams at me, if something is in the road that I do not wish to drive over and I do not put on a turn signal or disengage auto pilot, it screams at me. I use Autopilot 90% of the time that I am driving on the highway and auto steer 90% of the time that I am on other roads. More than once it has hit the break when an idiot has pulled into my lane without signaling or has abruptly applied their brakes in front of me. Now if someone attempts to defeat Tesla's awareness system and has a wreck, then I do think that there should be some penalty.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    No way I slow down to let that truck in, as the truck is supposedly going at least 10 mph slower than me. And if I suddenly slow, someone behind me could end up on my bumper.

    The Tesla must have been in the trucker's blind spot after the first car passed, so he just jerked the big rig over. No question that this is 100% on the trucker. Was absolutely nothing that AP could have done, or should have done. Do you really want AP/FSD to start more phantom braking when a vehicle in the adjacent lane turns on a blinker? Even if the car locks up the brakes, the truck still hits it. Or would you prefer AP jerk the car into the median/shoulder ditch?

    (off to go wait for all the disagrees. Perhaps I can set a new personal best?)
     
    • Like x 2
  5. erniejenson

    erniejenson ErnieJ

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    This is a perfect example of why I do my own driving. If I were driving I would be watching closely when passing a semi and I would have been on the shoulder of the road with the brakes on before he could have hit me. There is not enough time to wait and see if the Autopilot will protect you. I am usually driving a low to the ground sports car, Corvette, and those big wheels intimidate me. Imagine how I feel when in the MGA.
     
  6. MikeHolliday

    MikeHolliday Member

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    I have a 1972 TR6 with a highly modified 2500 cc 6 cylinder and I also drive very defensive.
     
  7. Kpasa

    Kpasa New Member

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    Pleasanton, CA
    While there's no law forbidding it, into in a vehicle's blind spot while their blinker is on, may not be the safest thing to do. You can righteously argue right-of-way and blame all you want while surveying the damage and injuries.
     
  8. Laguna M3

    Laguna M3 Member

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    Laguna Niguel, CA
    I agree that it was the driver of the truck's fault. I am merely stating that if a reasonable and alert person was driving the Tesla, there would have been no accident in the first place.
     
  9. DS369

    DS369 Member

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    Montreal
    Truck's fault. All he had to do was to be patient, going around the slower vehicle in front. I don't expect truckers to be patient though, they treat everyone else as inferior on the road. I guess men in control of powerful machines usually do that... if they are dumb, which most of them, such men, are. How many times have you been stuck behind two semis going next to each other discussing their glorious life over the radio? Trucker is not a role model of a good/patient driver.

    AP's "fault". Bridge. Shadow. White truck. NN failed to see, simple as that. Usually AP brakes even if the car in front is over the line just a bit, unless it fails to recognize that car. You could imagine that getting NN to learn this object is pretty hard, because it's RARE and DYNAMIC data with shadow moving over time during the day. I would imagine FSD rewrite (currently limited beta release, not public) will fix this all together as it will now track objects over time and not per every frame like in current version. It should reduce the probability of these events.

    Driver's "fault". Don't trust the AP. When I drive on the highway I use AP all the time. Just AP, not NoAP. BUT! I always, always, always watch out for known bugs like bridges, trucks and trailers, construction zones, weird looking vehicles, poor lane markings, UFOs (whatever derbies that fly into the car), when passing very active junctions, weather conditions, etc, etc. It is an assist, not FSD. I only relax using AP when in between heavy traffic zones, in between cities, etc. Otherwise I watch like I normally would, while it's keeping the lane. I might let off when I see ahead on the straight line and traffic is calm, weather is good and I'm NOT in the left lane. Also AP does not read blinkers yet.

    If driver failed to see the blinker and make a safe bet from inexperience it's still truck's fault. Insurance charges younger drivers or drivers with bad record for exactly that reason. Some people just fail to learn or use common sense too.
     
  10. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Maine
    Not "technically at fault". Totally at fault. That is 100% on the semi driver.

    The maneuver happens between 24 and 25 seconds.

    At 24 seconds the Tesla is hardly any distance behind the rear of the trailer. There is an SUV that has not quite overtaken the semi.
    At 25 seconds the maneuver is happening and the Tesla is overtaking the rear of the trailer.
    At 26-27 seconds the collision happens.

    The semi driver just screwed up.

    The semi driver simply didn't spot the Tesla and may have been focused on overtaking as soon as possible after the SUV passed because behind the Tesla was another semi.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    The question was specifically who was at fault. There is no nuance in this situation as it relates to fault. The answer is the truck was at fault. /story

    If you want to talk about what people "should" do or what is the "polite" thing to do... that's a different conversation.
     
    • Like x 2
  12. HighZ

    HighZ MDNT SLV M3

    Joined:
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    Rockford, IL
    I had a similar incident while on AP. I had been in the right lane and had many cars passing on left. However a truck in the left lane slowed down traffic and I was overtaking those on the left.

    I know that it is not a good idea to pass cars on right and I even ratched down my AP speed, but was still overtaking an orange car who decided to move into the right lane to pass.

    I disengaged AP to avoid the accident. I don’t know if AP would have tried to avoid the accident, but he moved into the lane so fast, I doubt it. Thankfully, stability control kept my car from spinning.

     
  13. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

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    Location:
    Austin
    that's not my point
    If the other vehicle moves into your lane would you rather have the wreck and claim it on their insurance, or just not have the wreck and go on with your life. I choose the latter.
    Fault is only relevant to insurance claims.
    Judging from the video the Tesla driver was lucky to make it out with his life - who cares whose fault it is at that point.
    I don't need injuries just to prove the other guy was at fault.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. hgmichna

    hgmichna Member

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    Of course the truck driver was at fault and caused the accident.

    The interesting point is only that in all of such cases when I drove, the autopilot braked and prevented an accident, for which I am grateful.

    But here, probably in one case out of a hundred, it failed to brake. Why? I suspect, as I had written above, that it has something to do with the truck being white.
     
  15. dwolvin

    dwolvin Member

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    I was just laughing at 'a year later he's doing better'. And 'stuck in the car'. Semi's fault entirely, but the M3 driver probably shouldn't be on the road if that's the response to a stressful situation.
     
  16. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    So you admit that your point wasn't irrelevant to the topic subject. Great. We're in agreement.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  17. DanCar

    DanCar Active Member

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    Lighten up. Some of us are here to have fun. Holding strictly to a title is irrelevant. Discussing whether autopilot should be better is germane to the topic.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  18. Ostrichsak

    Ostrichsak Active Member

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    Fashioning a strawman on an internet forum thread to spark a debate nobody cares about? You're a real wild man. Try not to party too hard on this crazy Saturday night maniac.
     
  19. sperkin

    sperkin Member

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    No, not Tesla's fault because turning on the signal doesn't give you the right of way. Driver has to make sure the lane is cleared before changing lanes. You can't go 55mph and cut someone off during 65mph because you used your signals. Even though people does this including myself. I used my signal so back off sucker.

    Also, AP doesn't know the truck was towing a trailer. It treats the cab as a single car. This happens to me all the time in LA traffic and I have to stop AP to prevent this.

    This accident happened because the driver wasn't paying attention. This is how AP treats all semi-lane changes. It think it has enough room because it doesn't account for the trailer that is soon coming into view.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. drtimhill

    drtimhill Active Member

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    Oh come now it was an interesting question, and i dont see any sign that the OP was trolling.
     
    • Like x 1

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