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Is Electrify America a scam for EV's?

Is Electrify America's pricing viable to use on road trips?

  • Yes, it seems reasonably priced

    Votes: 15 25.4%
  • No, it's too expensive

    Votes: 44 74.6%

  • Total voters
    59
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We're looking at getting our first EV next year so I was comparing the Model Y to the Mach-E on abetterrouteplanner.com. I ran a trip from Arizona to Houston, TX (1200 miles one way) since this is a trip we are looking at doing to visit family. The charging cost on Electrify America seemed ridiculously high so I ran some numbers to see how it compares to equivalent gas vehicles.

AZ to Houston, TX (1200 miles one way)
Tesla Model Y LR AWD- 2 hours 25 minutes charging ($38.00)
Mach-E Premium AWD- 3 hours 55 minutes charging ($216.00)
25mpg Crossover equivalent- 1200 miles/25= 48 gallons*$3.00gallon= ($144.00)

I also ran Audi E-tron ($74 more than gas), Rivian R1S ($79 more than gas).

Am I missing something? My biggest worry is that non-Tesla manufacturers are jumping on Electrify America network and that is going to make people think that EVs are too expensive to take road trips. On the other hand, It's crazy how cheap Teslas are on road trips!
 
I am not sure I understand the question. Electricity does not come from gas, so there is no reason to expect that the price of one should be tied to the price of the other. The vast majority of EV charging is at home, so while expensive electricity on a road trip may be annoying, it generally won't have much of an effect on the overall cost of ownership of an EV. (This is more of a concern for MUDs without AC charging, where owners must rely on DC on a regular basis. Which is why I am a really big proponent of putting AC charging in at MUDs. But that is a different issue than the one raised by the OP).

Their prices are indeed much more than the retail price of home electricity. But despite already having inexpensive AC electricity at home, you are looking at Electrify America's chargers because they provide more than what you already have - you want very-quickly-dispensed DC electricity at locations convenient to a road trip. That is far more expensive, because it requires many additional expenses including land acquisition, permits, installing a lot infrastructure, maintenance, and most importantly paying commercial demand charges (which in some places and times are freaking enormous). They could avoid the demand charges...if they spent a lot more money installing storage as well. Heck, they could avoid the electricity charges if they installed a ton of windmills or solar panels along with the storage, but again that would increase the upfront costs that have to be recouped.

I haven't done all the math (especially since it will vary greatly by location, use, and across the 3,000 utilities in the US), so I can't say what their margins are or whether they are "fair". Of course, given the up-front fixed cost, any margin calculation is going to be meaningless unless you also consider how many customers they get - which at most road-trip-convenient locations, so far, isn't many (that is why most DC charge stations so far are near major metro areas). The problem is much like that of selling cars - if it costs a billion dollars to launch a car, and $25k to build each one, at what retail price are you making money? The answer is you aren't making money, at least not until after you sell a whole lot of them. Anybody installing DC infrastructure has a similar problem. We are going to see a number of different DC pricing models, and we probably in general aren't going to like most of them (although any individual may find one company with a model that happens to suit them better than others).

The difference for a manufacturer like Tesla (or a utility, who also has lower costs) is that they can have strategic reasons to invest money in this area, and so can justify carrying (some) losses on DC electricity sales. This is why I encourage utilities to get in to this business, and I'd love to see more manufacturers do so as well, but if using CCS they have to worry about their infrastructure investment supporting other brands. There are possible ways around that, but they are very messy and given the paucity of volume EVs, the manufacturers just don't have the incentive to get in to it. At least, not yet...
 
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I'm just saying when it comes to looking at the cost of a road trip EA is more expensive than taking that same trip with a gas powered vehicle. One of the benefits for EVs is that they cost less to charge than gas. Somehow the biggest non-Tesla network charges way more than gas. Seems really odd to me and its another excuse for people not getting an EV.
 
Conspiracy theory time:
Big oil is somehow involved in this pricing to make the EVs less attractive to the average consumer. Tesla is the only manufacturer so far immune to being paid off by big oil.
I love how people throw out the term "conspiracy theory" to make someone seem nutty. You don't think Oil Companies have influence through lobbying and advertising? And you don't think they want to take down things that reduce their profits?
 
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Home electricity (which is already installed, is far slower, already has a billing mechanism built in, doesn't have demand charges and is far likely to be vandalized or damaged) is cheaper than gas.

DC electricity is not. Nobody installing DC infrastructure is making money on it. At least not yet; it is possible in the future.

More utilities getting involved, utility commissions granting demand-charge waivers, manufacturers getting serious about selling EVs in volume, much-higher EV density on the roads, scale cost savings (including industry consolidation), and time to amortize will all help to improve the situation in the future. [Edit: and advertising, and attached profit centers like convenience stores as Az_Rael points out]. But we are not there yet.
 
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DC electricity is not. Nobody installing DC infrastructure is making money on it. At least not yet; it is possible in the future.

I think they will eventually have to go to the gas station model. Gas stations make very little money on the gas and a lot of money on the convenience store attached to the gas pumps. So price the electricity to barely make anything, but set up lounges that sell snacks, coffee, paid wifi, etc.
 
Az_Rael points out another strategic reason to invest in this area (and perhaps even carry a small loss). This too will happen over time and help bring down the costs of DC charging. There will also be advertising at DC stations (some already do) to help.

E Dizzle, yes, many people have noticed this for as long as DC charging has been around. And nobody is happy about it. But what we're saying here is that it's not because the DC providers decided to run a scam; they really have costs to recoup. I have problems with how Electrify America is doing business, but I can't fault them for charging too much when they are, so far, losing money.

Tesla has similar costs, but they are carrying it as a marketing expense - and unless other manufacturers do something similar (which they won't before they release volume-strategy EVs), that will be a competitive advantage for Tesla.
 
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Az_Rael points out another strategic reason to invest in this area (and perhaps even carry a small loss). This too will happen over time and help bring down the costs of DC charging. There will also be advertising at DC stations (some already do) to help.

E Dizzle, yes, many people have noticed this for as long as DC charging has been around. And nobody is happy about it. But what we're saying here is that it's not because the DC providers decided to run a scam; they really have costs to recoup. I have problems with how Electrify America is doing business, but I can't fault them for charging too much when they are, so far, losing money.

Tesla has similar costs, but they are carrying it as a marketing expense - and unless other manufacturers do something similar (which they won't before they release volume-strategy EVs), that will be a competitive advantage for Tesla.
Great points!
 
Electrify America's pricing is very odd. In California if you could configure a car to charge at 75kW or 350kW it's actually cheaper than Superchargers.
350kW = $0.17/kWh
125kW = $0.33/kWh
75kW = $0.20/kWh
I bet the fundamental problem is that electricity for charging stations is very expensive. Because the peak load is high and the average load is low they get killed on demand charges.
Screen Shot 2019-11-27 at 9.47.03 AM.png
 
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Gas is particularly cheap in Texas. But in part of CA, I saw a station charging $4.50/gal for premium yesterday. So the cost comparison is all local. (Doh.)

But as others note, you can charge at either end and electricity is also cheap in TX, so you could top off at the relatives garage (or free charger at at local hotel).
 
A minor note that might affect how DC charging costs appear on various networks:

The reason Tesla DC charging looks "cheap" is that Tesla has strategic reasons to subsidize it; it costs Tesla more than they are charging us (at least now - they could raise their prices, although they say they won't raise them higher than their actual costs. That could still get them over the cost of gas, depending on gas prices and Tesla's choice for a payback schedule. But I am sure Tesla is aware of the optics and is trying to keep their prices below gas prices).

Other manufacturers won't go to the same lengths as Tesla until they are serious about volume, but even with low-volume vehicles many do some subsidizing to sweeten the deal. Often they use a program like "2 years of free charging". Ford may offer something like that on the Mustang, especially since they intend it to be a volume car (joining the Model 3 and the 2nd-gen LEAF as the only examples of that) - but they may not have to in their first year, as the Mustang a great offering that will be (hopefully just for the first year!) limited to 50k units by battery availability, so maybe (?) they can get by without doing anything at first. I am sure they will be watching their reservation deposits to help them decide.

I don't think 2 years is long enough for DC charging to be notably cheaper than now after the program runs out; I would guess it will take more like 5-10 years. But most consumers weigh up-front costs far higher than far-off costs, so this has been a good incentive for other manufacturers to move their non-volume (i.e. compliance, conquest, defense and halo) EVs.
 
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Where did you get those numbers from? They don't match the EA rates shown in the images that you included. The 350 kW rate looks incorrect.
Those are the rates for California from the website. Note that they charge by the minute.
($0.99/min * 60min/hr)/350kW=$0.17/kWh. Obviously not very useful since there are no vehicles that charge that fast yet.
I wonder what the actual cost per kWh would be with the Model 3 charge profile if Tesla ever makes a CCS adapter.
 
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