Is Electrify America a scam for EV's?

[Kuhz]

We had two EA installations locally (3 miles apart) that have been live for a few months. It’s rare to see a car charging there more than once a day and I drive by them multiple times a day. Also they have only one Chademo head and the rest are CCS which seems to be the case for other locations as well.

 

[JTWIRE]

Tesla designs their Superchargers to be a service for their customers.

Others design their chargers to be significant profit centers.

That is why Tesla is winning the EV battle

 

[Cosmacelf]

Even at those prices, EA is not likely making money, so it is not a scam. Demand charges is what kills any hope of profit. In this article, the CEO of EA gives a recent example where they charged two customers $20 each for charging, yet they themselves were charged $1,300 by the utility for demand charges. Now, usually these demand charges are a once per month thing, but still, you get the idea: https://electrek.co/2019/11/26/interview-electrify-america-chargers/

Charging networks can mitigate demand charges by either having their stations have a lot of usage (and thus the demand charges are spread over more paying customers), or by installing batteries, which also increases cost, and again, only make sense if your station has a lot of usage to amortize the battery cost over.

Charging networks are also lobbying governments for relief from demand charges. The theory behind demand charges is that the utility has to build significant infrastructure (that you don't see) behind the scenes to deliver that 2 MW of power for a large charging site. I suspect the utilities are literally gouging these large customers and have been way overcharging for demand charges for years. But that's what you can do when you've got a regulated monopoly overseen by useless regulators.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Maybe thread title should be changed from "scam" to "rip-off" or "overpriced"?

I don't think EA is a scam (a dishonest scheme) but I do think it is overpriced and could be considered a rip-off.

 

[peterss]

At least they are charging by Kwh, not by min.

My wife just "fast" charged our degraded 2011 Leaf on EVgo for 30 mins * 0.30/min = $9. Got a whopping 2.2KWhrs.

ouch.

 

[peterss]

Ok, nevermind - I see Electrify America is by min.

ChargePoint is generally by KWhr fortunately (for us).

 

[Zero CO2]

We're looking at getting our first EV next year so I was comparing the Model Y to the Mach-E on abetterrouteplanner.com. I ran a trip from Arizona to Houston, TX (1200 miles one way) since this is a trip we are looking at doing to visit family. The charging cost on Electrify America seemed ridiculously high so I ran some numbers to see how it compares to equivalent gas vehicles.

AZ to Houston, TX (1200 miles one way)
Tesla Model Y LR AWD- 2 hours 25 minutes charging ($38.00)
Mach-E Premium AWD- 3 hours 55 minutes charging ($216.00)
25mpg Crossover equivalent- 1200 miles/25= 48 gallons*$3.00gallon= ($144.00)

I also ran Audi E-tron ($74 more than gas), Rivian R1S ($79 more than gas).

Am I missing something? My biggest worry is that non-Tesla manufacturers are jumping on Electrify America network and that is going to make people think that EVs are too expensive to take road trips. On the other hand, It's crazy how cheap Teslas are on road trips!

• you are missing a lot... Telsa has a huge network of superchargers strategically located where you shop , eat , rest etc.
  
• Tesla range is real with billions of miles, ... MY should be similar to M3.. and is same platform so defects should be relatively low for 1st year vehicle
  
• Audi range is pathetic for the price of the vehicle
  
• Mach-E, Rivian may not be ready in time and even if they are you would be getting 1st year vehicle ... not a good idea... lots of defects for early adopters .... range unproven
  
• not sure what kind of route planners these other vehicles have but Tesla Trip planner is excellent you will not have any issue locating a supercharger.
  
• I am not sure if the cost numbers you found for non supercharger networks are correct ...but i have owned my model S for 3 years and have exclusively used the Tesla SC network for road trips up and down the east coast.
  
• if you buy a Tesla you can still use chargepoint, EV connect, EA, etc ; however , if you buy non-Tesla ... no supercharger network for you

so your only realistic choice is a Tesla assuming model Y is ready when

 

[KingBozo]

I am not sure I understand the question. Electricity does not come from gas, so there is no reason to expect that the price of one should be tied to the price of the other. The vast majority of EV charging is at home, so while expensive electricity on a road trip may be annoying, it generally won't have much of an effect on the overall cost of ownership of an EV. (This is more of a concern for MUDs without AC charging, where owners must rely on DC on a regular basis. Which is why I am a really big proponent of putting AC charging in at MUDs. But that is a different issue than the one raised by the OP).

Their prices are indeed much more than the retail price of home electricity. But despite already having inexpensive AC electricity at home, you are looking at Electrify America's chargers because they provide more than what you already have - you want very-quickly-dispensed DC electricity at locations convenient to a road trip. That is far more expensive, because it requires many additional expenses including land acquisition, permits, installing a lot infrastructure, maintenance, and most importantly paying commercial demand charges (which in some places and times are freaking enormous). They could avoid the demand charges...if they spent a lot more money installing storage as well. Heck, they could avoid the electricity charges if they installed a ton of windmills or solar panels along with the storage, but again that would increase the upfront costs that have to be recouped.

I haven't done all the math (especially since it will vary greatly by location, use, and across the 3,000 utilities in the US), so I can't say what their margins are or whether they are "fair". Of course, given the up-front fixed cost, any margin calculation is going to be meaningless unless you also consider how many customers they get - which at most road-trip-convenient locations, so far, isn't many (that is why most DC charge stations so far are near major metro areas). The problem is much like that of selling cars - if it costs a billion dollars to launch a car, and $25k to build each one, at what retail price are you making money? The answer is you aren't making money, at least not until after you sell a whole lot of them. Anybody installing DC infrastructure has a similar problem. We are going to see a number of different DC pricing models, and we probably in general aren't going to like most of them (although any individual may find one company with a model that happens to suit them better than others).

The difference for a manufacturer like Tesla (or a utility, who also has lower costs) is that they can have strategic reasons to invest money in this area, and so can justify carrying (some) losses on DC electricity sales. This is why I encourage utilities to get in to this business, and I'd love to see more manufacturers do so as well, but if using CCS they have to worry about their infrastructure investment supporting other brands. There are possible ways around that, but they are very messy and given the paucity of volume EVs, the manufacturers just don't have the incentive to get in to it. At least, not yet...

Just viewed a video on YouTube where they used the 25kWH per 100 miles, listed on the sale sticker to compare with an ICE, not Scientific but can put you in the ballpark, efficiency efficiency efficiency

 

[Ocala.Joe]

My wife and I had a terrible experience with EA, if you look on plug share you will find other options. Never will we sign up for that service again.

 

[renim]

hard to be scam, if they can't make a profit.

key points
capital cost
demand charges
intermittency of revenue
administration

all these make profit difficult to make, even as cost are high.

 

[Az_Rael]

if you buy a Tesla you can still use chargepoint, EV connect, EA, etc ; however , if you buy non-Tesla ... no supercharger network for you

Sort of. You can use the slower Chademo chargers if you buy the $450 adapter, but not the CCS ones. At least in the US.

 

[Eno Deb]

Tesla has similar costs, but they are carrying it as a marketing expense - and unless other manufacturers do something similar (which they won't before they release volume-strategy EVs), that will be a competitive advantage for Tesla.

Just pointing out that nothing prevents other carmakers from making an agreement with EA (or any other charging provider) to offer their customers discounts or, as is more common, limited free charging. For example, the Audi E-tron comes with 1000 kW free charging in the EA network, and the Taycan will also have (I think) 2 years of free charging. Such contracts are part of EA's business plan.

 

[SMAlset]

What is interesting from what we've seen is that where there is non-Tesla charging, and not talking about the units Tesla has had to put in at some locations where they build out, is that while Tesla will open with what maybe 8 SC units, these non-Tesla locations will only have as many as two in many places. Here's Tesla with over 40 at Kettleman City. I realize U.S. auto manufacturers have only wanted to build a small amount of compliance vehicles but given there are more ICE cars than Teslas and more traditional manufacturers planning somewhat to decent range EVs out there to replace buyers ICE vehicles, you have to wonder when non-Teslas will have enough chargers per location to realistically keep people traveling with their non-Tesla EVs happy.

Tesla wants to promote its EVs and all the good things around it. The main focus hasn't been on making profit over everything else as I see it. The traditional manufacturers, dealerships, charging companies don't have the same focus. Because they chose to not invest in earnest in developing BEVs all these years, they are in the position they are in now. I see it as having wanted someone else to make the capital expenditure not them and so that has delayed getting the infrastructure. If it weren't for VW getting caught with DieselGate have to wonder who would be building out many of the new locations. My husband drove by one just the other day and commented that they only had two charging stalls and that was it.

 

[ralph142]

It’s easy to see the old thinking involved with legacy ICE makers. Fuel is some other company’s gig, not ours. Just like car systems, by bits from different cos and put the in the car. Tesla takes the whole picture into consideration much more often.

 

[Eno Deb]

What is interesting from what we've seen is that where there is non-Tesla charging, and not talking about the units Tesla has had to put in at some locations where they build out, is that while Tesla will open with what maybe 8 SC units, these non-Tesla locations will only have as many as two in many places. Here's Tesla with over 40 at Kettleman City. I realize U.S. auto manufacturers have only wanted to build a small amount of compliance vehicles but given there are more ICE cars than Teslas and more traditional manufacturers planning somewhat to decent range EVs out there to replace buyers ICE vehicles, you have to wonder when non-Teslas will have enough chargers per location to realistically keep people traveling with their non-Tesla EVs happy.

Actually EA stations have about 4.5 chargers on average, some as many as 10.

 

[cwerdna]

Just pointing out that nothing prevents other carmakers from making an agreement with EA (or any other charging provider) to offer their customers discounts or, as is more common, limited free charging. For example, the Audi E-tron comes with 1000 kW free charging in the EA network, and the Taycan will also have (I think) 2 years of free charging. Such contracts are part of EA's business plan.

You mean 1000 kWh?

Funny that you mention Audi and (Porsche) Taycan. You do realize that Audi and Porsche are part VW AG (Volkswagen Group) and the EA is subsidiary of VW of America, right? How convenient! (Gotta love how they're stacking the deck in favor of their own cars by short changing all sites (it seems) of CHAdeMO.)

 

[Eno Deb]

You mean 1000 kWh?

Yes, thank you.

Funny that you mention Audi and (Porsche) Taycan. You do realize that Audi and Porsche are part VW AG (Volkswagen Group) and the EA is subsidiary of VW of America, right? How convenient!

They use open standards and are open to all car companies. For example, Ford has partnered with them for their FordPass.

(Gotta love how they're stacking the deck in favor of their own cars by short changing all sites (it seems) of CHAdeMO.)

Good. They shouldn't waste resources on a dying standard. There aren't many Chademo EVs with enough range for highway trips anyway.

 

[cwerdna]

They use open standards and are open to all car companies. For example, Ford has partnered with them for their FordPass.

That's quite amusing. Ford currently no longer sells a single vehicle that can be DC fast charged. Only their gen 2 Focus Electric could be DC FCed and it sold in puny numbers before Ford killed the Focus for the US market. Both gen 1 of FFE sold in puny numbers.

The only currently sold plug-in they have right now is the Fusion Energi errr.. PHEV which can't be DC FCed. When it was the Energi and when the C-Max Energi was sold, they couldn't be DC FCed.

Before the FFE was discontinued, per December 2018 U.S. Plug-In EV Sales Report Card from Monthly Plug-In Report Card Archive, Ford sold a whopping 560 in the US in 2018 with sales in the single digits for per month from Aug to Dec 2018.

I guess we'll have to see what happens with their "Mustang" whenever that ships...

 

[Eno Deb]

Ford currently no longer sells a single vehicle that can be DC fast charged. Only their gen 2 Focus Electric could be DC FCed and it sold in puny numbers before Ford killed the Focus for the US market. Both gen 1 of FFE sold in puny numbers.

The only currently sold plug-in they have right now is the Fusion Energi errr.. PHEV which can't be DC FCed. When it was the Energi and when the C-Max Energi was sold, they couldn't be DC FCed.

Before the FFE was discontinued, per December 2018 U.S. Plug-In EV Sales Report Card from Monthly Plug-In Report Card Archive, Ford sold a whopping 560 in the US in 2018 with sales in the single digits for per month from Aug to Dec 2018.

I guess we'll have to see what happens with their "Mustang" whenever that ships...

FordPass is obviously for the Mach-E, so I'm not sure what your rant is all about and what it has to do with EA.

 

[JTWIRE]

It is going to hurt the EV market if these companies continue to gouge the customers. Only true way to avoid is to home charge. This mostly takes trips out of the equation.