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Is FSD holding anyone back from new refreshed S?

DerbyDave

Active Member
Jul 2, 2020
1,058
619
Kentucky
FSD should either stay with the car or stay with the driver. It should be illegal for Tesla to never implement FSD and release it in production in a reasonable amount of time, as promised, and then both remove it from the car and from the driver at sale, realizing full price for an undelivered product never completed. It should also be illegal for any software product, including FSD, auto headlights, auto wipers, and summon to be beta for more than a year, just to avoid liability for poorly written code they want to debug by releasing it to the public in Beta for years. Soon, they will be removing auto headlights and auto wipers from cars sold. Shouldn't I receive the Beta product either free, or they pay me, until it is released in production? No other company could get away with this.
 

AMPd

Active Member
Nov 27, 2012
4,601
4,158
Northern California
Only $14k? It's been a couple of years since Elon predicted each Model 3 with FSD will be worth over $200K - that's when he tried to convince each Tesla car is an appreciating investment. I think though that he switched to pushing crypto instead - quicker, easier, and pure profit ($101M first quarter IIRC), so perhaps he no longer claims $200K worth for each Tesla with FSD.
14k + subscription fee. The 14k gets you the hardware and a monthly fee gets you the software!
I’m kidding. But also wouldn’t surprise me.
 
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beatle

Active Member
Aug 31, 2019
1,243
682
Springfield, VA
It's a shame that "FSD" only amounts to summon and lane changing right now. I have both of those features on my car now and they're nice to have. I use summon to pull my car out of my garage when I need to get into my attic or if I'm in a tight parking spot. Without lane changing on AP you need to disable/override AP, change lanes yourself, then reengage AP. Maybe not the end of the world, but annoying. I'd have to shell out $10k to have those features on the next car, and that's not worth it.
 

TessP100D

Member
Jan 15, 2018
428
297
La Quinta, Ca
So, we fundamentally disagree it seems. I don’t know if your “short” Tesla or what is fueling your really angry posture in this, but my perception and experience of all this (and this is my last word on it today, as I’m out to the “day”) is quite different.

If you know Tesla and Elon, timelines are NOT his strong suite.

Would it be nice if it were. Of Course!

That is very different than whether he ultimately delivers on promises made.

Whether production of the 3, getting to profitability, economies of scale, battery advancements, “energy” gaining ground, insurance business advancement, revenue streams, Y being here, Cybertruck on the way, more factories on the way, China being wildly successful thus far, or…in this…the monumental better changes we’ve seen in interrations of FSD, he does generally keep true to the promises he makes, it just takes (way) longer than he anticipates; sometimes significantly so (admittedly)!

If we look at his other endeavors outside of Tesla he is similarly wildly successful and proven commodity, over time.

Being candid, I’m really unconcerned with whether you find credible my account of travel using FSD from OC to LA, as that repeatedly has in fact been my experience and I’ve had multiple Tesla’s over years.

We have a Mod Y right now, a 3 and an S and they ALL have FSD and I’ve used them ALL, all over the freeway systems in LA, OC, San Diego, Ventura, etc.

I don’t know what your experience is with it other than what I’m hearing here, but mine (with lane changes for example on the freeway) is that they’ve become really quite good and more oftenhuman like.

That is different than to say there aren’t times I need to intervene or that FSD doesn’t make mistakes.

It does. BUT…since 2018 I’ve had opportunity to see what it could do versus what it does do now and those changes are monumental and are going to continue.

So..in summary…Best wishes for a good day, as I’m getting on the freeway now to go spend some time with Fam (and yes, ’ll quite happily use FSD on the way there and back - and find it peaceful when I do ;-)
You can’t see a young that is right in front of you. Yet… he must be a short. Delusional
 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
109
235
Laguna Beach
Sigh. Yes, a long-time owner and shareholder speaking truthfully about the past and current state of Tesla’s autonomous driving must obviously be a “short”, and furthermore “angry”.

What leads you to believe I’m angry? I love my car. I’ve put 120,000 drama-free miles on it. I’ve just outgrown the need to convince myself that Tesla can do no wrong. They flat-out suck at certain stuff and I’m not shy to talk about it.

I don’t doubt your claims about using Navigate on Autopilot. I do think you’re exaggerating your car’s ability to complete a reasonably long multi-freeway drive, during normally busy traffic conditions without intervention. And I do think that anyone claiming with a straight face that NoA as it exists today is less stressful than managing things yourself is deep into confirmation bias territory, trying to convince themselves as to the value of their purchase.
So, this will be my last post related to this thread, as it feels a bit futile - as you seem pretty dug in, and that’s fine (for u).

First, glad you like your Tesla and that you’ve derived enjoyment from it. I share that with you.

I think you misconstrue my posture, as I don’t think Tesla incapable of wrong, at all. Or, that they are perfection, or that there aren’t things that need betterment with FSD, or the Company more broadly, or that I’ve some rosy colored glasses view of FSD that is fan boy and can’t see past fan boy ideology where they can do no wrong. Lol, Um..No.

I’ve had Tesla products for years and am well familiar with what the execute on really well and what they don’t.

Where Auto-Pilot/FSD is concerned, I’ve a) zero incentive or reason to delude myself, or b) talk up something incongruent with my actual experience. I’m not being paid or incentivized to say any of this.

I’ve claimed and resolutely stand by my earlier statement - wherein I claim that in “my eperience”…a, b, and c are true. That’s it.

In this, while there are times the navigate on auto pilot gets it wrong, my opinion is based upon the fact I’ve driven from OC to LA Co hundreds upon hundreds of times and I state, as an absolute (as I’ve done it) that it can be done with zero intervention (save the nag).

Are there times where lane changes within that aren’t perfection and you look like an idiot (because the car is driving to slow or won’t make the transition)?…sure.

On the flip though, many many times I’ve been wholly impressed with how lane changes have evolved and become more and more human like.

is it ready for prime time without error or needing to pay attention to what it’s doing?
No, but I (and anyone who bought it) knew that going in.

For me, it’s both fun and new and nothing anyone else has and at times, despite your proclamation that it cannot be, many times (for me) it is in fact something that makes my drive LESS stress inducing and more peaceful (actually…Particularly in slow traffic).

I do sometimes (depending on conditions) prefer to use auto pilot without the navigate on auto pilot feature, but that said, I use both, but am elective in what I use where and under what conditions.

Depending on the iteration, FSD’s tendency to rock back and forth within a lane, or at higher speeds, edge over more than you’d want? Sure. Get bugged when those things happen.

None of those imperfections and slowness in evolution invalidate what I’ve said and claimed and experienced.

When I spoke not knowing if you were “Short” or what your underpinning reason was for the super strong “anti” posture, it was because I didn’t know/don’t know, but it comes across as “angry man” and somehow wronged and in that, we just see differently what Tesla has and is doing and in where they’re going with it and in what their likelihood is of mounting success.

I think they’re going to continue to iterate and they’ll keep getting it more and more right and while I don’t have a timeline on if/when that translates to actual autonomy, I’m WAY ok with experiencing the various iterations along the way, without additional cost for me. For me, that translates to value I’m both good with and that is fun/cool/entertaining/exciting/worth it ans something No One else has…and ALL of that is “value” to me.

You’ve a different view. Um..Ok.

So, in summary, not impacted/worried 1% (or a percentage of a percentage) if you find that incongruent with what you want to believe is my real world experience, as your “truth” doesn’t doesn’t need to be mine.

I was just sharing my real world experiences with the car and its features.

I wish you well in your travels with Tesla and their imperfect (yes) but Amazing products.
 
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D.E.

Uncorked
Oct 12, 2016
764
985
Ann Arbor, MI
It would be nice if Tesla would “transplant” the extras we have on a current car to a new one. That would let them sell to those of us who cling to our current Teslas. I have lifetime supercharging, FSD, and grandfathered into lifetime subscription to music, etc. The FSD isn’t worth purchasing currently. I got it during a sale and it includes a computer upgrade, so was worth it for me. The free supercharging, I don‘t go cross country much, haven’t used it in the last year or so, so cost to Tesla would likely be minimal in my case. The music, I do enjoy that. I’d love to have a Plaid S, realistically that’s unlikely especially if I have to give up the current extras. My car is perfect. It’d cost me a bunch to get the Plaid. Mine’s 4 years old now. Not much mileage, perfect paint, good acceleration (4.1 sec to 60), not record acceleration, but satisfying none the less. I’ve got real leather and I like that.

I got mine after the face lift but before the 3 became available. My hat’s off to those who bought the original roadsters, they paved the way to me getting my S. By the same token, I helped pave the way for the 3s and newer models. I feel as though I’ve been with Tesla since the fairly early days, even though it’s only been 4 years. So I feel I’ve been with Tesla, I’m loyal to Tesla, but when I look at how loyal Tesla is to me, I think not so much. The perks have been great. The problem is that Tesla has done precious little to make me feel special so that goodwill I feel toward them will continue to erode. If they’d transplant the extras for those of us who’ve been with them for a while, then I’d feel special again. I think they won’t, so they’re certainly not doing much to keep the early people loyal. I understand they’re growing and that they need to concentrate on making money, but there aren’t really that many of us when compared to current sales, and transplanting benefits would certainly pry some of hands from our current Teslas and they’d sell a few more.

As far as the free supercharging goes, I think they should charge for supercharging within 100 miles of home, then free for chargers over 100 miles away. It‘d be a small change for those of use with the free lifetime supercharging but it would cut the cost for them and it would maintain the free long distance travel for me. It might allow them to offer the free “distance” supercharging to later stimulate sales. Initially Musk said superchargers would never be looked upon for revenue generation but I think that thought has been left behind.

So I’d love to be on the cutting edge but I can’t imagine a time when the additional acceleration would actually be useful to me but I’m juvenile enough to just want the fastest.

As far as the self driving goes, highway driving with the automatic lane centering steering traffic aware cruise control gives me the restful travel experience. I don’t really need it to drive through town, pull off at the proper exits, look at traffic lights, back out of parking spaces, or park itself. So the real benefit is the lane centering steering and the traffic aware cruise control.

We just got a 2022 Kia Telluride to replace our 17 year old Honda minivan. That Telluride has the cruise control that will follow the car in front and brake if necessary to maintain the distance. It isn’t quite as smooth as Tesla’s but it’s good. It’s also got automatic steering that keeps the vehicle centered in the lane. It doesn’t change lanes like the Tesla will but for the most part I get everything I value in the Tesla FSD in that Kia. And that didn’t cost me 5 figure upgrade prices. It’s an upper trim line Kia, though.

So I think Tesla either needs to up it’s game with the FSD and offer something really useful or it needs to eliminate the extra cost. If it doesn’t, the other manufacturers are going to eat their lunch. So I’m still loyal to Tesla but I understand Tesla doesn’t really care that much for me. And I’m growing more loyal to Kia. On the one hand Kia doesn’t care a whit about me but their vehicle is great, and on the other, Kia doesn’t bone me 5 figures to make it better to drive on long trips.
 

DerbyDave

Active Member
Jul 2, 2020
1,058
619
Kentucky
Yesterday, in my 11 mile drive to eat on a normal 2 lane Kentucky road, FSD warned "Forward Collision Imminent" 3 times, went over the center line several times, and sped up to go across an inclined railroad crossing on a curve in the road. I obviously did and could intervene. I have told Tesla many times that they need to develop FSD on more roads than sunny California roads, but they obviously feel if they can get FSD working in California, or on main roads and Interstates, that they have successfully implemented FSD. Using FSD is dangerous in my state. Hopefully they will realize the product cannot be implemented unless most normal roads across the country can be navigated using FSD. Tesla has years to go.
 
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FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
109
235
Laguna Beach
Appreciate your write up. I think your comments about retaining/growing and deepening loyalty amongst their existent customer base is a really important element that would be worth Tesla’s effort/time and money to focus on. Disenfranchising the base is a long term poison pill no one should want. Hear u, in all.
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,909
13,050
California
It would be nice if Tesla would “transplant” the extras we have on a current car to a new one. That would let them sell to those of us who cling to our current Teslas.
(…)
I understand they’re growing and that they need to concentrate on making money, but there aren’t really that many of us when compared to current sales, and transplanting benefits would certainly pry some of hands from our current Teslas and they’d sell a few more.
They wouldn’t “sell a few more” though. Right now literally every car they can make is spoken for before it’s produced, despite raising prices across the board by thousands of dollars this year.

Offering incentives right now to existing owners would just replace a full-price sale with a discounted one. That would be dumb.

Maybe they’ll care about making existing owners “feel special” when demand softens and they’ve got some extra cars to sell. That would make more business sense.
 
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quickstrike12

Member
Jun 13, 2018
638
475
Fort Worth Texas
Sorry for long delay from OP. Great holiday with family.
@beatle @FunSecured
I agree with several folks above when it comes to the (drivers assist) FSD. I hesitate to call it full self driving but it has become part of my every day drive and I love the help that it brings. I don’t much believe anyone is getting a car that drives itself everywhere anytime soon. But I do think Tesla has a great car that can make driving on highways WAY more relaxing and easy. And prob safer in my case. it would suck for me to go back to basic AP without being able to simply change lanes. i use NOA maybe half the time and it is an excellent way to ease the work of a long commute. And yes I use summon a few times a week to just to move the car a short distance. It can be very handy.
I hate not getting a new car because I don’t want to lose those features. But I damn sure can’t pay 14K for those things.
so alas I’m gonna stick with the my MS 75.
someone said it best. Until they get to a point they can’t sell all the cars they make immediately people like me that want to trade up don’t stand a chance without losing some great features I’ve come to enjoy.
 

Big Toys

Member
Jan 19, 2019
606
507
Florida
Regarding the FSD:

I had the opportunity (now several times) to try out the "FSD" feature on some loaners. To be frank, I'd be pretty pissd if I had paid $10K for it. It appears to be a somewhat glorified autosteer that only works on some roads, and requires me to check its operation at all times by checking mirrors and ensuring it is not driving me into the car ahead or off into the shoulder when changing lanes and indeed slows down on the exit ramp. It's not relaxing at all. It is easier just to make the lane changes myself since I'm doing the mirror and lane checks anyway, and I already know how to get to Exit 145 and slow to an off-ramp speed appropriately. I'm trying to figure out what the machine is doing that I'm not that makes the cost of the "beta" software rational.
 

oktane

Active Member
Oct 25, 2016
1,717
1,769
USA
Regarding the FSD:

I had the opportunity (now several times) to try out the "FSD" feature on some loaners. To be frank, I'd be pretty pissd if I had paid $10K for it. It appears to be a somewhat glorified autosteer that only works on some roads, and requires me to check its operation at all times by checking mirrors and ensuring it is not driving me into the car ahead or off into the shoulder when changing lanes and indeed slows down on the exit ramp. It's not relaxing at all. It is easier just to make the lane changes myself since I'm doing the mirror and lane checks anyway, and I already know how to get to Exit 145 and slow to an off-ramp speed appropriately. I'm trying to figure out what the machine is doing that I'm not that makes the cost of the "beta" software rational.

Basically FSD is more of a novelty at this point. I wouldn't get it but it's the only way to get summon. Too bad summon isn't available separately.
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,912
7,143
Chicago, IL
I have the new refreshed S. The Yoke…actually, is fantastic and Super functional. While it’s true that it takes a minute to get used to, some of the things that those who haven’t driven it can’t appreciate yet is, for example. How incredibly convenient right and left turns indicators have become. The buttons for these are right by your left hand fingers in a way that is much less movement and so much more convenient than a turn stalk. It’s true that muscle memory has to be re-wired in this, but it actually doesn’t take long and one day, will be broadly viewed as superior, as it’s WAY less effort. In like fashion, turning on and off auto pilot/FSD is one button push and just…conveniently located/easy. Another is how the Yoke makes seeing the screen in front of the “steering wheel” a joy. No more trying to look over or under or through the wheel to see that screen and it’s just…honestly, great. Voice command access similarly easy and for me, the yoke feels like your driving s fighter jet and just feels great in your hands, matches the contemporary feel of the interior of the car and is a really good look, all of which says future …now.

It is the most made up issue saying the yoke has better visibility. I have a perfect view of my LARGER IC even with a round wheel. Extra credit Tesla engineers for a timeless design on my 2016.5 S.

I do think the yoke concerns appear similarly overblown. I will reserve judgment for when I take delivery of my LR X or test drive a vehicle with the yoke but I can assure you neither my wife nor I have any issues with seeing the IC.

EDIT: Also, I have a real leather steering wheel and it feels SO much better than the sharkskin plastic they've got now. Ick.

AND I can always give you a blare of the horn whenever I want and I've got 2x the steering wheel real estate to make sure my family is safe.
 
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FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
109
235
Laguna Beach
It is the most made up issue saying the yoke has better visibility. I have a perfect view of my LARGER IC even with a round wheel. Extra credit Tesla engineers for a timeless design on my 2016.5 S.

I do think the yoke concerns appear similarly overblown. I will reserve judgment for when I take delivery of my LR X or test drive a vehicle with the yoke but I can assure you neither my wife nor I have any issues with seeing the IC.

EDIT: Also, I have a real leather steering wheel and it feels SO much better than the sharkskin plastic they've got now. Ick.

AND I can always give you a blare of the horn whenever I want and I've got 2x the steering wheel real estate to make sure my family is safe.
Glad u like your 2016S. Cool. I had a different experience with our 2018S where the steering wheel was concerned - in relation to the viewing area directly in front of it.

I regularly found myself peering around portions of the wheel or adjusting it to accommodate my viewing the info on screen.

I often kept my wheel pretty low….So…don’t know how you generally keep yours, but fo4 me, with my height and how that wheel was regularly positioned and how I kept the height of my seat…it actually was a regular annoyance for me.

With the new Yoke, ALL that just went way for me and I’m well pleased in it.

For me, this isn’t at all a “made up issue” but was 3 years of real world experience with my 2018100D versus the Refreshed with the Yoke. Not trying to convince at all, just sharing my experience with my old S versus the new one.
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,912
7,143
Chicago, IL
Glad u like your 2016S. Cool. I had a different experience with our 2018S where the steering wheel was concerned - in relation to the viewing area directly in front of it.

I regularly found myself peering around portions of the wheel or adjusting it to accommodate my viewing the info on screen.

I often kept my wheel pretty low….So…don’t know how you generally keep yours, but fo4 me, with my height and how that wheel was regularly positioned and how I kept the height of my seat…it actually was a regular annoyance for me.

With the new Yoke, ALL that just went way for me and I’m well pleased in it.

For me, this isn’t at all a “made up issue” but was 3 years of real world experience with my 2018100D versus the Refreshed with the Yoke. Not trying to convince at all, just sharing my experience with my old S versus the new one.

Sorry to discount your experience but this is the first I've heard of this.
 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
109
235
Laguna Beach
Sorry to discount your experience but this is the first I've heard of this.
All good. Everyone’s’ experience is just that-personal experience; and I’m Juz sharing mine and hope it’s helpful for some/any that have interest in the car and it’s new features.

I DO think having had an earlier version of the S is invaluable in my assessing what I like/dont, what I think are improvements or that I wish they would have done better or different.

What is perplexing to me is thise who have formed such strong opinions about the refresh and negative opinion in things like the Yoke, literally without even having driven the car (or…if they have, discounting the sort or revolutionary that comes with it).

Broadly, the refresh, on its interior changes, exterior body style mods, or on acceleration from line, or suspension, or on acceleration when at freeway speeds, or range, OR the Yoke (and how it makes things like turn signals and FSD activation SO easy and close and intuitive) are game changing to me and I genuinely am I love with this car (but wouldn’t be shy about speaking out to the contrary, if it were so).

I literally just stepped out of the car and from a short drive and honestly, all the content about people saying they’re not going to buy one because of the yoke is just…beyond and ludicrous (no pun intended).

The Yoke is -easy- to manage and a quick learn in how to simply adjust for where you’re going to / how your going to move it / hold in slow speeds with tight 180 sort of turns.

It is super close to a non issue

and is just muscle memory and something different/new. That doesn’t equal Bad!

At greater speeds and 90% of turning movement you’ll be doing with the car, I perceive as both comfortable and not where you’re moving at all beyond the radius of your arms travel. At greater speeds and at times I actually find the yoke advantageous. Beyond that, it is super comfortable and feels …good when your holding it.

From an aesthetics standpoint…I love it and honestly, when I parked the other day, my street over neighbor walked up to me without solicitation and said she just wanted to say my car is the most beautiful / sexy car she’s ever seen. I don’t hang out with this neighbor or know her well, at all; but while that sort of genuine, unsolicited feedback isn’t needed for me, it IS fun to see people’s reaction to the car.

From a drivability standpoint (and I’ve had dozens of high performance cars over decades) I am just very very pleased.

It’s great/an extraordinary improvement from earlier year models in performance overall and certainly in its interior appointment being more in keeping with what you’d expect from a 100K car.
 

headcase

Member
Jan 23, 2015
566
1,046
Raleigh, NC
As I've said in another thread, Autopilot on highways is very relaxing for me, and it allows me to have much more situational awareness of my surroundings. Simple but effective lane keeping and adaptive cruise. Done.

But FSD isn't something I intend to ever purchase on my next cars, unless Tesla rolls out Level 5 autonomy. Why? Because otherwise, you end up spending much more energy having to potentially react to what the computer does incorrectly and unexpectedly, versus just driving the car yourself around town.

Heck, why do you think playing defense in sports is usually more exhausting than playing offense?
 
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azred

Active Member
Apr 12, 2016
1,903
2,203
Chandler, AZ
FSD is a joke but I don’t see any particularly strong argument why Tesla should sell it to an individual vs equip it to a car.

If it stays with the car, presumably you reap some value from it when you sell said car. Certainly not $10k because let’s face it, it’s not worth that under any circumstances - but it’s not like you got “nothing” for it.
Depends on the age of the car. Sounded to me like the car was old enough that it probably had EAP/FSD rather than AP/FSD. I have cars with both combos and I believe I got next to nothing with the EAP/FSD combo. I do really like auto lane changes though so I got something of value with the AP/FSD combo. EAP>>AP obviously.
 

Tiger

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
1,700
1,264
Estonia
It should be illegal for Tesla to never implement FSD and release it in production in a reasonable amount of time, as promised, and then both remove it from the car and from the driver at sale, realizing full price for an undelivered product never completed.

That IS a slippery slope, and soon religions will be banned too, for not delivering.

People need to have freedom to buy into stupid stuff, it's a basic human need, for some of us.
 

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