Is FSD overpriced ($7,000 over AP)?

[CrayZ1]

More like $2K to add lane assist, ACC and AEB typically. It is standard on many cars like Toyota Safety Sense so I still don't see the justification for Tesla's pricing for perma-beta features.

Toyota builds some of the price into the base model. Corolla's are $20k and up now. I don't think auto lane change or summon is even available.

To clarity my opinion on this, $7000 is a lot for today's functionality of FSD, but Elon decided to give AP away for free, at least for now. So the best bang for your buck is Free AP. The best functionality is AP+FSD.

Predictions are hard...especially about the future.

Yogi Berra, RIP.

 

[lafrisbee]

Toyota builds some of the price into the base model. Corolla's are $20k and up now. I don't think auto lane change or summon is even available.

To clarity my opinion on this, $7000 is a lot for today's functionality of FSD, but Elon decided to give AP away for free, at least for now. So the best bang for your buck is Free AP. The best functionality is AP+FSD.



Yogi Berra, RIP.

You ARE SO VERY WRONG. You are a good reason why the internet is a dangerous place. You could have easily checked the price AND the Safety system on the internet before you posted such a lame comment. But no, for some reason you "think" instead of "know."
And this makes you lazy and dangerous.
I bought a 2019 Corolla for $17,400 (All in. Sales tax, tag. and New car tax) for my wife on February 13th 2019. And the reason I bought it was because Safety Sense ( Toyota Safety Sense ) was a standard feature.
The only thing you got correct was that it is "built in to the price of the car." Just like EVERYTHING ELSE. My wife just got her driver's license a week before getting the car. I knew I could not jeopardize her health and safety. I looked at a few manufacturer's safety systems and toyota's was great. The only thing it doesn't have is blind spot detection (at least I have never seen it come into play while driving). She has already come home and told on herself a few times about how the car reacted before she realized the issue.
And the 2020 corolla is selling for almost the same thing. Some of the ads make it appear to be cheaper than what I paid, but then those are the liars. At least they get paid to tell untruths.... what do you get out of being so reckless with the truth?

 

[golfcart]

Time will tell if it is eventually worth it but right now it is definitely not work $7k in my opinion. I only have it because it came with a car I bought used...

 

[CrayZ1]

You ARE SO VERY WRONG. You are a good reason why the internet is a dangerous place. You could have easily checked the price AND the Safety system on the internet before you posted such a lame comment. But no, for some reason you "think" instead of "know."
And this makes you lazy and dangerous.
I bought a 2019 Corolla for $17,400 (All in. Sales tax, tag. and New car tax) for my wife on February 13th 2019. And the reason I bought it was because Safety Sense ( Toyota Safety Sense ) was a standard feature.
The only thing you got correct was that it is "built in to the price of the car." Just like EVERYTHING ELSE. My wife just got her driver's license a week before getting the car. I knew I could not jeopardize her health and safety. I looked at a few manufacturer's safety systems and toyota's was great. The only thing it doesn't have is blind spot detection (at least I have never seen it come into play while driving). She has already come home and told on herself a few times about how the car reacted before she realized the issue.
And the 2020 corolla is selling for almost the same thing. Some of the ads make it appear to be cheaper than what I paid, but then those are the liars. At least they get paid to tell untruths.... what do you get out of being so reckless with the truth?

The 2020 Corolla has a MSRP (incl dest) of $20,555. Feel free to check on it.

I'm glad you picked a safe car. But the most important safety system is advanced driver's training. Please make sure she takes one of the many Defensive Driving Schools that are available. They teach you how to handle a car that is out of control. Everyone in our family has taken one or more of them.

 

[vinnie97]

Definitely wish I hadn't bought it with the purchase as a Tesla virgin. I should've listened to the warning signs that were being spouted by the veterans then.

 

[mystery]

Its in beta. I have never paid for a beta product. If anything I have gotten tons of hardware, software, etc, for free over the years for being a beta tester. The main reason I have yet to buy a Tesla is because FSD is beta. Its in very poor taste with what Tesla is doing charging for it while its in beta and they can't even deliver it to-date.

 

[jimmym1981]

The real questions...is it worth 6-7K with the "hopes" of it becoming at least 1/2 FSD in the next 2 years? I'd gladly pay 6-7k for my car to drive itself just like it does now on FSD with hands-on the wheel, but including everywhere and not just the highway. True FSD isn't anywhere ready IMO.

 

[TonyT]

So....i saw that video on youtube today, from engadget....

ive been following commai and hotz’s work for years even before i found out about tesla.

i owned a 2017 honda crv and wanted to retrofit the openpilot system to my crv but at the time in 2016 it was way too complicated and took too much developer knowledge to get going and my car was promised future support but it wasnt ready yet....

so i gave my crv to my parents, traded in their car towards a tesla lease and rolled off the lot with a 90D ap2.0 with the “Promise” of FSD sleep in the car one day...

The joke about all this is that my first experiance test driving a tesla was with a P90D AP1 in 2015 and i was completely astonished at its capabilities at the time.

and what i didnt find out till AFTER i rolled off the lot was about the mobileye disastrous split..what a lovely surprise to me....to find out that AP2 was a disaster and was a completely separate software design that was just trying to imitate what mobileye had created for ap1... the fact that ap2 didnt reach parity until march 2018 was completely atrocious.... and now in 2020 we keep getting delays after delays....

im still keeping my 90D
Im still supporting tesla.
but i feel like this just couldve gone so much better, they couldve been more transparent, offered refunds at least.

now my lease is up in 7 months....and what do i get for being an early adopter and being out 7000$ and Being told my forum members that my MCU and Camera equipment most likely need to get ripped out to POSSIBLY fulfill their promises from 4 years ago.

Im honestly on my last straws here.

if they dont make serious progress with retrofits and the full fsd software isnt running in beta by q2.... i got a feeling the class action suit will form.

so now after watching the autopilot and Openpilot comparison video.....

its amazing to see how close to autopilot it is with only using 1 camera...so ive decided to purchase and install the new openpilot commai 2 in the crv (that i gave to my parents) that im now taking back because they wanted a smaller car.....

i will post videos to show comparisons when i receive the devices.

sorry for the scrambled venting...

But just like somebody said in this thread....it honestly is crazy how good openpilot is all for 1k...

it makes us feel like tesla is twiddling their thumbs....

we need retrofit transparency for ap2 users at the q1 report....

im not waiting 6 More months to then be told...sorry your beat, wont work and also we need the keys back to your lease....smh

You should see OP in a pre-ap Tesla

 

[willow_hiller]

The real questions...is it worth 6-7K with the "hopes" of it becoming at least 1/2 FSD in the next 2 years? I'd gladly pay 6-7k for my car to drive itself just like it does now on FSD with hands-on the wheel, but including everywhere and not just the highway. True FSD isn't anywhere ready IMO.

It's a bit of a game of expected future value, isn't it?

I currently spend about $3,000 on train fare every year on my commute. If FSD could drive me to work and then drive off to find free parking (at home, if need be), I would only spend about $500 on electricity and maintenance per year. So if FSD could do that for me, $7,000 would pay for itself in 3 years. Over 10 years, it would save me $25,000.

But right now, I put the odds of completely driverless FSD and the regulations to allow it during the useful life of my car at about 10%. So the expected value of FSD to me, even if I'm able to use it for 10 years after regulators approve it, is only $2,500. If Tesla can prove that the odds of that future is higher than 10%, it would justify the expense.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Tesla’s don’t really offer many options if you think about it. You have FSD, wheels, paint, interior colors/seat options. That’s really it.

I built an E class wagon, and to get the drivers assistance stuff, it was like an $11,000.00 option (or something like that, it wasn’t cheap). So, in the grand scheme of things, $7,000 isn’t really that bad, plus it’s something they can add functionality to over time. Maybe.

**EDIT: My data is incorrect. The drivers assistant option is only $2,250 on the new E-classes/ S classes. MB’s self parking option is $1,900. A couple years ago, this stuff was bundled into a option package which was like $11,000, or something like that. Sorry for the misinformation.

 

[willow_hiller]

If Tesla can prove that the odds of that future is higher than 10%, it would justify the expense.

Just had an additional thought. Another important aspect that could change and make FSD an insta-buy is the license. If FSD was a per-household license instead of per-vehicle, that would change the equation above from "the useful life of my car" to "will this ever be achieved in my lifetime." Which is a significantly higher probability.

 

[CrayZ1]

Its in beta. I have never paid for a beta product. If anything I have gotten tons of hardware, software, etc, for free over the years for being a beta tester. The main reason I have yet to buy a Tesla is because FSD is beta. Its in very poor taste with what Tesla is doing charging for it while its in beta and they can't even deliver it to-date.

After the invention of internet based software upgrades, you never bought any finished software product. The whole industry changed into Ship It Now, Fix It Tomorrow (we used to release, then take our vacation so nobody screams at us).

Now, list the Autosteering cars available with dashcam for $36,200 that will still do 0-60 mph in almost 5 seconds flat, have instant throttle response and costs half what a Prius costs to operate.

You need to spend a few years coding to really understand the software side of reality. There are far more CNC machining centers than Teslas, and they cost a lot more on the average. And the amount of coding is far less for CAD/CAM Software by an order of magnitude. So the CAD/CAM market is bigger and the coding is less. One of the popular programs is CATIA, and while I haven't been dinking with it lately except through translators it was selling for $10,000 to $60,000 and require a $6,000 annual fee for updates.

 

[Reeler]

Just had an additional thought. Another important aspect that could change and make FSD an insta-buy is the license. If FSD was a per-household license instead of per-vehicle, that would change the equation above from "the useful life of my car" to "will this ever be achieved in my lifetime." Which is a significantly higher probability.

I would pay $7K if the license followed me to a new Tesla. As it stands, I have given Tesla a five figure amount with several car purchases and have not enjoyed what I paid for. If you buy after the sale, it is not clear insurance will cover these software upgrades so Tesla should make them transportable. It would make good business sense because they would get a sticky customer relationship.

 

[loquitur]

Am I a rarity, or perhaps in the silent majority, who bought FSD
not for complete autonomy, but for sheer safety that could save lives?

When FSD owners get not just light/sign recognition and reaction,
but performing turns in city driving with faster reflexes than a human,
lives will be saved. Imagine cross traffic trajectory detection that
prevents you from getting T-boned by a light runner, or noticing
the sign/signal or a parked driver door opening suddenly in time
when you are distracted, or a quick reaction keeping you from
mowing over a bicyclist.

This is cheap insurance that becomes super important if one passes a
car down to a driving-age young adult. I don't have M3 hardware yet, but will,
and the 5K I paid for potentially better safety in city driving is well-spent.

 

[Reeler]

I don't think there is any delta between AP and FSD right now on the safety front? Maybe in the future?

 

[willow_hiller]

I don't think there is any delta between AP and FSD right now on the safety front? Maybe in the future?

Oddly enough, AP disables the blind-spot monitoring system, which is a slight problem for those of us without EAP.

If AP is on, putting the turn signal on will reduce the torque threshold at which AP is deactivated, but it won't disable AP until you actually torque the wheel. And if a car happens to be in your blind-spot while you're doing a from-AP manual lane change, it won't alert you until after you've started to merge into them.

 

[Ucme]

Let me begin by saying that I will need a lot of therapy real soon...

I did it, I pulled the trigger, took a leap of faith on a 2016 MS 75D and I think I'm having an out of body experience right now... I’m kicking myself for committing to a car I have not seen, felt or touched in person. Is this buyers remorse? WTH I must be crazy!


Problem I'm facing now is, I put the cart before the horse as I forgot to research the cost of car insurance before I made my commitment. I live in PA and WOW! The 75D will increase my insurance about 5K on an annual basis, again what did I just do? Looking for some alternative insurance options if anyone has suggestions, please let me know.


In addition, the car I committed to has FSD but Tesla's web page didn't say free transferrable supercharging and I forgot to ask the sales consultant about it. Does anyone know how I can research and verify if this car has that option?


Another concern I have was about charging. I got sales talk with asking the Tesla rep. Looking for some good threads that will help me understand charging equipment needs, charging costs, what to do if it doesn't have free supercharging? Should I walk away and start another search?

What did I just do, I want to be brave, but OMG
HELP!!

 

[AquaMan]

I love autopilot, which is free and it's 80% of what I'd want in autonomy. Until FSD is better at lane changes, interchanges, and stoplights than I am, I want to do them myself.

Now, if FSD somehow gets "pretty good" at lane changes, stoplights, stop signs and interchanges (a small miracle IMHO) it would mean drivers could successfully (but not safely) sleep in the driver's seat... Which would be tempting to many, and voters would hate that idea, so FSD may then be outlawed.

Now let's say FSD becomes better than the average driver in all scenarios, and there are no regulatory restrictions. (An even bigger miracle.) It would just be good business to LOWER the price of FSD, not raise it.

Why? Because again, 80% of what most users want from FSD is autopilot, and with so many cars out there, I believe they could far more easily sell a milion FSD packages for $1,000 ($1 billion total) vs. selling 100K FSD packages for $7,000. (Only $700 million) My numbers are arbitrary conjecture of course.

Since the hardware already exists (after HW3 upgrade), FSD essentially costs Tesla $0 per sale, so it's all gravy. Why leave so much revenue on the table? I think they'll lower the price for existing owners once it's "as good as we hope".

 

[rawrguthlaf]

At $7K it's not a very good idea. I suppose it depends how much that amount of money means to you. For me, the $3K deal I got during the fire sale last year was right for me because I intend to keep my Model 3 for 8-10 years, as that is how I am with cars. And if I did need to sell the car, it helps with the resell value. I'd recommend to anyone keeping the car for a few years to grab it during another fire sale for these reasons, but the $7K+ is ridiculous.

Also I'm not impressed at all with the rate of progress on this, mostly because of all the false hope Elon gives about the release of "feature complete". So much for 2019, that was a fib. The only FSD feature I use consistently is the turn signal stalk to change lanes. I don't trust it to take most ramps automagically.

 

[willow_hiller]

If Tesla can prove that the odds of that future is higher than 10%, it would justify the expense.

Not going to lie, this video posted on Tesla's Autopilot Team recruitment page has me rethinking that 10% possibility:

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/images/careers/autopilot/network.mp4