Is FSD refundable

[Knightshade]

If statements, whether they be verbal (such as autonomy day April 2019) or on Twitter (such as late 2016), are not QUALIFIED as being aspirational, then there may well be legal liability, regardless of what printed words on a website or paper contract state.

If you read the actual purchase agreement you'll notice it contains language specifically disclaiming any previous verbal statements FYI.

Apart from which there's no meeting of the minds for a contract when someone randomly says on twitter "I think we will be able to do X next year"


They are objectively late on delivering city streets. There might be a reasonable basis for a class action there. They promised it in writing during the purchase for end of 2019 delivery, then did so again for end of 2020- and missed both. Tesla very likely would have some legal liability for this (not legal advice!)- though as I say as long as they've delivered it by the time the suit gets settled it's likely to be, like their previous "delivered features but late" lawsuit, a fairly token amount to everyone in the class.


Folks trying to sue because their Tesla isn't L4/L5 and Elon speculated on twitter it might be by now though are going to have a...fun education in what an actual contract is.

 

[not-Martin]

If you read the actual purchase agreement you'll notice it contains language specifically disclaiming any previous verbal statements FYI.

Apart from which there's no meeting of the minds for a contract when someone randomly says on twitter "I think we will be able to do X next year"


They are objectively late on delivering city streets. There might be a reasonable basis for a class action there. They promised it in writing during the purchase for end of 2019 delivery, then did so again for end of 2020- and missed both. Tesla very likely would have some legal liability for this (not legal advice!)- though as I say as long as they've delivered it by the time the suit gets settled it's likely to be, like their previous "delivered features but late" lawsuit, a fairly token amount to everyone in the class.


Folks trying to sue because their Tesla isn't L4/L5 and Elon speculated on twitter it might be by now though are going to have a...fun education in what an actual contract is.

Contract words are irrelevant if other statements induce action by the consumer

 

[Knightshade]

Contract words are irrelevant if other statements induce action by the consumer

uh...no.

You signed a written contract exactly contradicting that in fact.

Governing Law; Integration; Assignment. The terms of this Agreement are governed by, and to be interpreted according to, the laws of the State in
which we are licensed to sell motor vehicles that is nearest to your address indicated on your Vehicle Configuration. Prior agreements, oral statements,
negotiations, communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the
purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding. We may assign this Agreement at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.

But I'll tell you the same thing I and many others have told folks who think they're in the right here- file a small claims case against Tesla. It's cheap, it's easy, and yet years later nobody seems to have gone through with it. Weird huh?

 

[not-Martin]

uh...no.

You signed a written contract exactly contradicting that in fact.




But I'll tell you the same thing I and many others have told folks who think they're in the right here- file a small claims case against Tesla. It's cheap, it's easy, and yet years later nobody seems to have gone through with it. Weird huh?

Umm, no.
In simple terms, yes I can defer to contract words. But not if I undertake ‘unconscionable conduct’ whereby, say, I advertise all over national tv & electronic media every day for the next 1,000 days straight the exact opposite & then I say “sorry, I didn’t mislead you, the contract stated otherwise. No backsies!”. My actions would be of such significance to induce the customer’s beliefs & actions.

 

[Knightshade]

Umm, no.
In simple terms, yes I can defer to contract words.

So you say no, but then admit yes

But not if I undertake ‘unconscionable conduct’ whereby, say, I advertise all over national tv & electronic media every day for the next 1,000 days straight the exact opposite

Which of course didn't happen.

Tesla spends $0.00 on paid advertising and has run exactly 0 advertisements on national TV ever


Again- best of luck with your imaginary lawsuit you're never going to file because you know you can't win.

 

[not-Martin]

So you say no, but then admit yes



Which of course didn't happen.

Tesla spends $0.00 on paid advertising and has run exactly 0 advertisements on national TV ever


Again- best of luck with your imaginary lawsuit you're never going to file because you know you can't win.

My extreme example was to dumb down reality, as many people think simplistically like yourself, making a good ‘superficial argument’

 

[Knightshade]

My extreme example was to dumb down reality, as many people think simplistically like yourself, making a good ‘superficial argument’

Superficial appears to be the only type of argument you've got.

I pointed out you literally signed a written contract disclaiming any verbal promises- your response was some nonsense about paid TV advertising, and when it was pointed out just how nonsensical that was, you blame the reader for noticing just how dumb your argument is and you claim you said something dumb on purpose.

Yikes.

 

[not-Martin]

Superficial appears to be the only type of argument you've got.

I pointed out you literally signed a written contract disclaiming any verbal promises- your response was some nonsense about paid TV advertising, and when it was pointed out just how nonsensical that was, you blame the reader for noticing just how dumb your argument is and you claim you said something dumb on purpose.

Yikes.

Let me dumb it down further for you - contract words do not absolve an entity of their legal responsibilities.

 

[Knightshade]

Let me dumb it down further for you - contract words do not absolve an entity of their legal responsibilities.

I mean- it literally does in this case... if they had a previous verbal contract with you for example, you are explicitly consenting to void that previous verbal contract signing this one.

Certainly there are rights you can't sign away in a contract- you can't sign a contract to be murdered or enslaved for example.

But signing one that replaces or nullifies a previous verbal business agreement? Sure can do that. You did so when you bought your car in fact.



Apart from that- you've utterly failed to explain how 'Elon tweeted he hoped to do something in the future' represents a legal responsibility for Tesla either way.

 

[rxlawdude]

Let me dumb it down further for you - contract words do not absolve an entity of their legal responsibilities.

Then let's see your lawsuit proceed. Let us know how it goes.

Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[not-Martin]

I mean- it literally does in this case... if they had a previous verbal contract with you for example, you are explicitly consenting to void that previous verbal contract signing this one.

Certainly there are rights you can't sign away in a contract- you can't sign a contract to be murdered or enslaved for example.

But signing one that replaces or nullifies a previous verbal business agreement? Sure can do that. You did so when you bought your car in fact.



Apart from that- you've utterly failed to explain how 'Elon tweeted he hoped to do something in the future' represents a legal responsibility for Tesla either way.

Tesla has done more than tweets

 

[not-Martin]

Then let's see your lawsuit proceed. Let us know how it goes.

Put your money where your mouth is.

No obligation, particularly to someone who fulfils the psychological concept of ‘confirmation bias’
As for ‘put your money where your mouth is’ - sell all your assets & invest it all in TSLA since they’re going to $4K by 2024 & ‘let us know how it goes’

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla has done more than tweets

...are you maybe considering eventually approaching giving an actual legally actionable example at some point?

To be clear: I mean one that actually happened- not the nonsense advertising stuff you had to try and pretend you didn't mean when called on it.

 

[raptor5244]

When I bought my Model 3, Elon said my car will be able to be used as a Robo-taxi while I was not using it and I would actually make money off my Model 3. So, is it safe to say that is not happening anytime soon? I love that Elon is a visionary and trying to change the world but as a company Tesla should set realistic expectations when asking folks to shell out $10k for vaporware.

 

[Knightshade]

In literally the same speech where he mentioned RTs he pointed out he's not always on time with his predictions.

And as we've covered elsewhere, they're not selling vaporware for 10k.

They're selling a specific set of 7 features 6 of which exist right now and are available to all buyers


Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Enhanced summon
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

That's what you get today for the 10k.


The 7th of which also exists, but is in narrow-release beta testing at this time (city streets).


By all means if you don't find all the existing features worth 10k, don't buy em. But calling a product that has delviered 6/7 of its listed features already vaporware just makes it look like you are using words you don't understand.

 

[Cyberax]

If you read the actual purchase agreement you'll notice it contains language specifically disclaiming any previous verbal statements FYI.

It's a common clause, informally called "four walls".

Except then the agreement DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT THE FSCK THE FSD IS! It only says "Full Self Driving". That's it.

So courts will have to look outside of the "four walls" of the contract. I.e. what would a reasonable person mean by "full self-driving"?

Folks trying to sue because their Tesla isn't L4/L5 and Elon speculated on twitter it might be by now though are going to have a...fun education in what an actual contract is.

Indeed. And perhaps you should start with actually READING your contract, hmm?

 

[Knightshade]

It's a common clause, informally called "four walls".

Except then the agreement DOES NOT DEFINE WHAT THE FSCK THE FSD IS! It only says "Full Self Driving". That's it

That is defined, in writing, during the actual purchase process.

You can click on Feature Details if you want to know more- If you do it gives you an entire paragraph of description plus a visual graphic, that defines each feature-- but the names of the features you're buying today for $10,000 and the one coming later, are all right there during the purchase process.

 

[gearchruncher]

That is defined, in writing, during the actual purchase process.

Ahh, but the purchase process is not "the contract"... Is it? You can't recover that later because it isn't in the contract at all. Almost like things before the contract was presented and signed apply? So somehow that applies, but not what is at tesla.com/autopilot?

And what you show- was it always there? Back to 2016? And of course, it's said "later this year" since 2019, so that contract has already been broken by Tesla.

 

[Cyberax]

That is defined, in writing, during the actual purchase process.

First, the website said something markedly different during MY purchase in 2018. It was clearly promising full autonomous driving, predicated on regulatory approval. No weasel words.

Second, "four walls" clauses cuts both ways. You can't just disclaim all responsibility for anything outside of the contract, and then go back and point out that a random page on Tesla.Com website has weasel words that redefine the "FSD" to mean that it's a bouquet of spaghetti. The "reasonable person" test still applies.

 

[Knightshade]

First, the website said something markedly different during MY purchase in 2018. It was clearly promising full autonomous driving, predicated on regulatory approval. No weasel words.

Sure. Mine too.

You and I bought a different product than what FSD buyers today are being sold.

I kept screen shots. Hope you did.


Either way though WHAT I was buying was spelled out, both then- and if you are buying now.

Second, "four walls" clauses cuts both ways. You can't just disclaim all responsibility for anything outside of the contract, and then go back and point out that a random page on Tesla.Com website

That's not a random page.

it's literally where you click "Add this specific thing to my purchase"

Then on your contract that thing is a listed item.

So that definition DURING purchase you have to actively click on to buy tells you what that item on your invoice is.