Is FSD refundable

[Knightshade]

Ahh, but the purchase process is not "the contract"... Is it?

It kind of is, yes.

During the purchase you select the things you want to buy.

Then the contract lists the names of those things.

They can be defined during the process just fine without needing to cc the detailed description you saw during that process into the MVPA.

You can't recover that later because it isn't in the contract at all. Almost like things before the contract was presented and signed apply? So somehow that applies, but not what is at tesla.com/autopilot?

... what?

I'm talking about the thing you're show when you click ADD THIS THING TO MY ORDER... not a generic marketing page.

It defines what you are buying when you click that button.

And what you show- was it always there? Back to 2016?

Why would it need to?

What it said when you clicked the button would be the only thing relevant.

And of course, it's said "later this year" since 2019, so that contract has already been broken by Tesla.

Yes it has. And I've repeatedly mentioned is the one actual legit basis for a lawsuit anyone has raised.

But as long as Tesla delivers it before the suit is settled you're looking at a small cash settlement per class member--- much like the original AP2 lawsuit where Tesla took longer than promised, but did deliver eventually, and everyone got a small refund from the settlement.

Probably an even smaller payment here, since it's only 1 feature out of 7 that wasn't delivered in a timely fashion while the 2016 suit was over late delivery of the entire then-active feature set.

 

[gearchruncher]

Then the contract lists the names of those things.

So, the contract lists the names of these things.
Then, Tesla has multiple pages, marketing, and other information that discusses what "Full Self Driving Capability" is. But the only one that legally applies is the one shown to you during the purchase process, even though the purchase agreement doesn't mention that at all?

Literally the MVPA says it is comprised of:

Documentation. Your Motor Vehicle Order Agreement (the “Agreement”) is made up of the following documents:
1. Vehicle Configuration: The Vehicle Configuration describes the vehicle that you configured and ordered, including pricing (excluding taxes and official or government fees).
2. Final Price Sheet: The Final Price Sheet will be provided to you as your delivery date nears. It will include final pricing based on your final Vehicle Configuration and will include taxes and official or governmental fees.
3. Terms & Conditions: These Terms & Conditions are effective as of the date you place your order and make your Order Payment (the “Order Date”).

None of that says that the definition of what is in your vehicle configuration is comprised of only what was shown to you RIGHT before you submitted the order. In fact, their lack of information about what you ordered besides high level words means you have to move outside of the contract to truly understand it.

As always gets asked in these cases, what is the definition of a Tesla Model 3, and how do I know it comes with 4 tires? That is not explicitly shown to me as part of the checkout process. Basically none of the features are. No FM radio, no AC, no roll down windows.... Those are only described in other places. Is it your contention that because Tesla never listed AC or FM radio as part of the checkout process, they could disable those in a SW update and it would be just fine?

 

[Mrbrock]

Also see all the window stickers that are faulty that Tesla has put out (SR MY with two motors). Since there isn't any type of full feature listing with the online order and most cars don't come with window stickers anymore, it seems like this would be one printed item that would have some legal weight.

 

[Cyberax]

That's not a random page.

it's literally where you click "Add this specific thing to my purchase"

Then on your contract that thing is a listed item.

So that definition DURING purchase you have to actively click on to buy tells you what that item on your invoice is.

This is what the court will look at, to determine what a reasonable person would believe. But my lawyer says it's actually not that big of a deal in itself, it's the contract language that matters.

But either way, Tesla is highly likely to lose a suit because they have not delivered anywhere close to what had been promised during the purchase.

 

[Knightshade]

This is what the court will look at, to determine what a reasonable person would believe.

They'd probably believe what it literally says on the page you buy the thing describing what you're buying.

Not sure why anyone thinks that's not the right answer.

But either way, Tesla is highly likely to lose a suit because they have not delivered anywhere close to what had been promised during the purchase.

On the contrary- they deliver 6/7ths of what is promised (to post March 2019 buyers anyway) immediately on delivery.

For pre 3/19 buyers they've delivered almost none of what was promised- but unlike the post 3/19 buyers no delivery date was ever promised those folks.

So, the contract lists the names of these things.
Then, Tesla has multiple pages, marketing, and other information that discusses what "Full Self Driving Capability" is. But the only one that legally applies is the one shown to you during the purchase process

Since that is the only one you are guaranteed to have seen in order to purchase- quite obviously yes that's the one that matters.

 

[gearchruncher]

Since that is the only one you are guaranteed to have seen in order to purchase- quite obviously yes that's the one that matters.

So Tesla can say whatever they want, as long as it is somewhere that you weren't guaranteed to see it, and none of that applies, even if what you see is just silent on it? Tesla could say on the main page of Tesla.com "all cars come with 100 year, unlimited mile warranty" and as long as warranty isn't in the checkout flow, it's OK that it's actually 4?

Tell me, how do I know the car I am getting will have 4 doors or that the window rolls down? None of that is described to a buyer during checkout. It's just on other Tesla.com pages and advertisements, which are apparently never relevant.

 

[Knightshade]

So Tesla can say whatever they want, as long as it is somewhere that you weren't guaranteed to see it

Well, for one thing, you can't provide the court evidence you saw, or relied on when making your purchase, anything else.

For another, since you were shown a specific description of what you were buying right on the page you buy it, and had to click the button directly under the description TO buy it- that would clearly be most relevant description of what you are buying. How could it not be?

, and none of that applies, even if what you see is just silent on it? Tesla could say on the main page of Tesla.com "all cars come with 100 year, unlimited mile warranty" and as long as warranty isn't in the checkout flow, it's OK that it's actually 4?

But they say nothing like that. About warranty, or what you're buying.

Tell me, how do I know the car I am getting will have 4 doors or that the window rolls down? None of that is described to a buyer during checkout.

Again, your most basic facts are wrong.

Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Design and order your Tesla Model 3, the car of the future. Learn about lease, loan and cash payment options, warranties, electric vehicle incentives, gasoline savings and more.

www.tesla.com

The wheels and doors, for example, are shown right on the order page. All 4 of each are available to view there. As are the optional wheels you can order.

 

[gearchruncher]

The wheels and doors, for example, are shown right on the order page. All 4 of each are available to view there.

Nope. Only the ones on the left are. For all I know, the car has no doors or tires on the right. It does appear to have some sort of seat-like thing in the rear, but no picture clearly shows that. And no picture shows rolled down windows.

See how silly this gets?

But they say nothing like that.

This was still on their website in November of 2020, and as we know city streets autosteer was coming this year in 2019, 2020, and 2021 per Tesla's own checkout page. Why should a buyer not have assumed this was part of that? Where else was "city streets autosteer" described?

All new Tesla cars have the hardware needed in the future for full self-driving in almost all circumstances. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

Also when you are at Model 3 | Tesla and you click "learn more" about autopilot, it shows you a video of a car driving itself with the driver's hands purposefully not on the wheel with the "driver only there for legal reasons." Right next to "learn more"? "Order now"...

You cannot say that the only things sold to a customer are those described in the final order flow.

 

[Knightshade]

Nope. Only the ones on the left are.

Again, your basic claims are factually wrong.

You can see both sides of the car clicking through the pics on that sales page.

Just as you can see longer descriptions of each FSD feature clicking feature details on the sales page.

All this info is directly offered from the sales page.

See how silly this gets?

Absolutely.

it's a shame you don't.

you click "learn more" about autopilot,

'https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/deliver...f8-366b-45d6-9f84-6afb030b2560/bvlatuR/WEBHD/the_future_of_autopilot

]it shows you a video of a car driving itself

Are you familiar with what the word FUTURE means?

Doesn't seem like it.

Interesting you were fine clicking through multiple steps to get to that though but couldn't figure out both sides of the car are shown right on the main page changing between the available pics.


Seriously though- filed a lawsuit yet?

Still no?

Why not? You seem to have this all figured out after all.

 

[gearchruncher]

Interesting you were fine clicking through multiple steps to get to that though but couldn't figure out both sides of the car are shown right on the main page changing between the available pics.

My order now page absolutely does not show me all sides of the car. These are the 5 images I get. Show me what you get on Design Your Model 3 | Tesla

Are you familiar with what the word FUTURE means?

Why should I not believe this was the future "coming this year"? Again, what is city streets autosteer if not this, and where is the 2019 CSA feature set described? By your definition, because CSA was never described, it doesn't ever have to exist, even though it was promised in 2019, yet the future of autopilot also doesn't need to exist because it's not in the order flow, ignoring there's an "order now" button below it.

 

[raptor5244]

In literally the same speech where he mentioned RTs he pointed out he's not always on time with his predictions.

And as we've covered elsewhere, they're not selling vaporware for 10k.

They're selling a specific set of 7 features 6 of which exist right now and are available to all buyers


Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Enhanced summon
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

That's what you get today for the 10k.


The 7th of which also exists, but is in narrow-release beta testing at this time (city streets).


By all means if you don't find all the existing features worth 10k, don't buy em. But calling a product that has delviered 6/7 of its listed features already vaporware just makes it look like you are using words you don't understand.

NoA is the only feature on that list worth a damn, when it works. So yes, for $10k you are not getting much for your money. What Tesla was selling was the promise of true FSD and they kept raising the price of the software to pressure folks to lock in or miss out. Even Elon calls the FSD beta "Not Great" and will take a ton more work. So, most people will have sold and moved on to their next vehicle and pretty much wasted $10k since Tesla doesn't even let you transfer the software vin to vin. I use the term vaporware loosely here but it is pretty accurate since it is just few useless software features and a promise that has not come to fruition yet.

Musk Says FSD Beta is 'Not Great' - Tesla Motors Club

Tesla Chief Executive Elon Musk said its latest beta version of its Full Self Driving software is “not great.” Musk was replying to a video praising the new self-driving software. Musk said Tesla employees have urgency to improve the system. “FSD Beta 9.2 is actually not great imo, but...

teslamotorsclub.com

Furthermore, try and sell a Tesla with FSD and see how much someone else will pay for that software package. Dealers are offering little to nothing. My advice is to use the subscription if you want to check it out.

 

[Cyberax]

They'd probably believe what it literally says on the page you buy the thing describing what you're buying.

You are not under any obligations to pay attention to what the page reads. The contract is what matters, and FSD is not defined there.

This page can be one of the arguments, but it's in no way deciding. This is a civil case, so the standard is "preponderance of evidence".

For pre 3/19 buyers they've delivered almost none of what was promised- but unlike the post 3/19 buyers no delivery date was ever promised those folks.

Again, the "reasonable" test applies. I don't think people would consider delivering promised features after the car's warranty expires to be reasonable.

In my case this will be in January next year, and I'm fully intending to sue Tesla.

 

[Pat67]

$12,000 for FSD is ridiculous. Anyone that buys it just has a whole bunch of money or just plain...well you know.

 

[Dewg]

$12,000 for FSD is ridiculous. Anyone that buys it just has a whole bunch of money or just plain...well you know.

It's a free market, and pricing is set by that market. It's the reason your house goes up in value, and the reason gasoline prices change constantly. Supply and Demand.

Your comment seems to ignore this fact. Based on it, you must believe anything priced over your personal "threshold" is ridiculous and anyone that purchases anything over that threshold is insane or wasting money.

I hope you can evolve your understanding and see how the free market works - why goods and services are priced the way they are, and how everything fits together to create our society. How that "ridiculous" price goes towards paying programmers, engineers, and assembly workers so they can afford to buy goods and services for their families - which in turn allows those companies to pay their employees so they can provide for their families, and so on down the line. It also helps raise the stock value for Tesla, which brings money into the investment accounts of countless people. Some of these people are counting on that investment for their retirement (401K, 403B, etc), are using that investment to help save for a down payment for their first house, or yes for the rich who are using it to buy private jets and yachts (which again pays employees who build them).

So be careful about saying something is ridiculously priced - it's priced right where the market says it should be.

 

[Supcom]

$12,000 for FSD is ridiculous. Anyone that buys it just has a whole bunch of money or just plain...well you know.

A large part of the world's population would think that $50,000+ for an automobile or a $10 cheeseburger is ridiculous. Everyone has their value/cost threshold. Apparently FSD beta at $12,000 is below yours. That doesn't make it ridiculous for everyone. It just makes it ridiculous for you.

 

[gearchruncher]

Supply and Demand.

This is kind of a broken thought process when we are talking about software licenses with zero incremental cost being delivered to hardware that was already sold.

So be careful about saying something is ridiculously priced - it's priced right where the market says it should be.

At an FSD take rate estimated at 10% on new vehicles, it's interesting that Tesla doesn't think they would sell 2X as many at 1/2 the price.

Your "free market" stuff only works when there are competitors, options, and limited supply. There is no competitive market for FSD, so we have no idea what the market would price it at. Just Tesla's offer price.

Tesla is having a hard time meeting demand right now for their physical cars, yet they have not raised prices enough to make that go away...

 

[Terminator857]

$12,000 for FSD is ridiculous. Anyone that buys it just has a whole bunch of money or just plain...well you know.

Yep, there are plenty of people who are ridiculously rich. Rich man's toy, move along, nothing to see here.
On second thought:
12K / 72 months = $166. So if you have $200 a month in disposable income, maybe that toy is worth it for you? Your choice: skip taking family to restaurant a few times a month every month or FSD beta.

 

[Dewg]

This is kind of a broken thought process when we are talking about software licenses with zero incremental cost being delivered to hardware that was already sold.

Tell that to Apple and Microsoft. FSD requires a large investment in programmers, engineers, server farms and the IT staff who run them, and assembly plant workers (who install the hardware required to run FSD - including updated cameras, new ECUs, etc). Those firmware updates don't write themselves.

Your "free market" stuff only works when there are competitors, options, and limited supply. There is no competitive market for FSD, so we have no idea what the market would price it at. Just Tesla's offer price.

If you read through the thread on Autonomous Driving (I think it's over 300 pages), you'll see there is a vibrant market for FSD, with Waymo currently delivering driverless "taxis" in certain cities. Many car manufacturers are offering their version of Autopilot (adaptive cruise control with lane assist), with some offering more feature-parity including automatic lane-changing, etc.

And lastly, the free market doesn't take into account competition. The market sets the price no matter how many people are competing in that space. Given your viewpoint that Tesla FSD has no competition, Tesla could set the price for FSD at $150,000. So the car is priced at $60,000, and FSD, as an add-on, is $150,000 - bringing the total cost of the car to $210,000. How many people would buy FSD at $150,000? I'd guess that there would be a few at that price who would purchase, but the vast majority would not. So the price would need to come down, and again the free market would adjust the pricing. Eventually Tesla arrives at a price that gives them the resources they need to continue development, and produce a profit for investors. That's the free market.

When will FSD pricing stop going up? When demand equals supply. In this case "supply" is what I mentioned earlier - the salaries of programmers, engineers, IT staff, assembly line workers, etc. who make and improve the hardware/software that runs FSD.

Tesla is having a hard time meeting demand right now for their physical cars, yet they have not raised prices enough to make that go away...

At its introduction (in 2020) a MY LR was about $47K, it's now at $59K. The free market is making adjustments. It's not a magic wand that instantly sets the ideal price. Tesla cannot simply jack up the pricing dramatically to lower demand - such a drastic change would hurt their reputation, damage the brand, and result in less profit for investors. So pricing is increased slowly until supply and demand are equal. Don't worry, your notion that prices aren't high enough is accurate and the free market will adjust.

 

[raptor5244]

It's a free market, and pricing is set by that market. It's the reason your house goes up in value, and the reason gasoline prices change constantly. Supply and Demand.

Your comment seems to ignore this fact. Based on it, you must believe anything priced over your personal "threshold" is ridiculous and anyone that purchases anything over that threshold is insane or wasting money.

I hope you can evolve your understanding and see how the free market works - why goods and services are priced the way they are, and how everything fits together to create our society. How that "ridiculous" price goes towards paying programmers, engineers, and assembly workers so they can afford to buy goods and services for their families - which in turn allows those companies to pay their employees so they can provide for their families, and so on down the line. It also helps raise the stock value for Tesla, which brings money into the investment accounts of countless people. Some of these people are counting on that investment for their retirement (401K, 403B, etc), are using that investment to help save for a down payment for their first house, or yes for the rich who are using it to buy private jets and yachts (which again pays employees who build them).

So be careful about saying something is ridiculously priced - it's priced right where the market says it should be.

All fair points but the FSD price is ridiculous since the car doesn’t actually Full Self Drive and probably never will during the time of ownership. If they marketed it as some assisted driving in perpetual beta for $1500 it would be more accurate and acceptable.

 

[Knightshade]

All fair points but the FSD price is ridiculous since the car doesn’t actually Full Self Drive

But they haven't said it would for that price in nearly 3 years now.

The product as sold since March 2019 is L2, and explicitly sold as such.

Certainly they have aspirations for more in the future, but the actual description shown during the purchase is L2, period.

Don't get hung up on the name.... A Happy Meal isn't guaranteed to improve your mood either.