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Is it more environmen friendly to keep driving your old ICE car vs. buy new EV? (no for most people)

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For now, I think the more typical scenario is that utilities offer low cost electricity to keep their (fossil; often coal) plants running at full tilt.
Yes, to cover their fixed costs. Their problem is when the price of electricity is below their cost of fuel.

No new coal plants will be build in this country, and the current ones will slowly die out - replaced with renewables and NG.
 
.....You also mention that Tesla require 2 batteries over their lifetime.......
Hmmm, this is an interesting statement. I’m not sure it will be even close to true on average, but I’m willing to be persuaded. For smaller batteries without TMS, it “might” be closer to true, but even there I doubt it. The WORST case battery, 2010-2012 Leaf, which I’m still using after 7.5 years, is probably the one most degraded. Nissan replaced lots of batteries under warranty, but listed a non-warranty replacement cost of $6500. Since these vehicles are barely worth that on the open market, very few people will pay for replacement. So, other than warranty replacement, nearly everyone will upgrade to a new EV, passing the old one to those who can use the lower range (students, retirees, small city dwellers, etc.). This is exactly what TaylorShellfishGuy did with his 150,000 mi 2011 Leaf. Nobody will ever spend $6500 for a new battery. That battery has seen 2000+ cycles, which is similar to 400,000-600,000 mi in a Tesla.

Longer range EV batteries should go well past the useable life of the car, unless there is a major failure and warranty replacement. I did read that one person actually persuaded Tesla to swap his 60 KWh battery for an 85, for a princely some. A few years later, he traded in the car for a new 100D, finally realizing that new cars are better than trying to keep upgrading old ones. As far as I know that is the only case of a manufacturer upgrading the battery. Nissan certainly won’t do it, even though it may be technically possible (a few private parties have swapped batteries, some even upgrading to larger batteries).

Therefore, only warranty replacement of batteries on average, which is maybe 5-10% of those sold. Also, these batteries will be 100% used for grid storage and recycled. This will definitely lower the average environmental cost of new batteries. Am I missing something?
 
Therefore, only warranty replacement of batteries on average, which is maybe 5-10% of those sold. Also, these batteries will be 100% used for grid storage and recycled. This will definitely lower the average environmental cost of new batteries. Am I missing something?
I personally think that old batteries as fodder for grid storage is never going to happen but they will be recycled. As for warranty replacements in EVs -- very low fraction for Tesla, high for Nissan <<shrug>>

More important however, is noting that a replacement battery cost outside of warranty that prevents a two battery per car scenario is just accepting that EVs last less time than competing tech. That is not a goal I embrace.
 
Hmmm, this is an interesting statement. I’m not sure it will be even close to true on average, but I’m willing to be persuaded. For smaller batteries without TMS, it “might” be closer to true, but even there I doubt it. The WORST case battery, 2010-2012 Leaf, which I’m still using after 7.5 years, is probably the one most degraded. Nissan replaced lots of batteries under warranty, but listed a non-warranty replacement cost of $6500. Since these vehicles are barely worth that on the open market, very few people will pay for replacement. So, other than warranty replacement, nearly everyone will upgrade to a new EV, passing the old one to those who can use the lower range (students, retirees, small city dwellers, etc.). This is exactly what TaylorShellfishGuy did with his 150,000 mi 2011 Leaf. Nobody will ever spend $6500 for a new battery. That battery has seen 2000+ cycles, which is similar to 400,000-600,000 mi in a Tesla.

Longer range EV batteries should go well past the usable life of the car, unless there is a major failure and warranty replacement. I did read that one person actually persuaded Tesla to swap his 60 KWh battery for an 85, for a princely some. A few years later, he traded in the car for a new 100D, finally realizing that new cars are better than trying to keep upgrading old ones. As far as I know that is the only case of a manufacturer upgrading the battery. Nissan certainly won’t do it, even though it may be technically possible (a few private parties have swapped batteries, some even upgrading to larger batteries).

Therefore, only warranty replacement of batteries on average, which is maybe 5-10% of those sold. Also, these batteries will be 100% used for grid storage and recycled. This will definitely lower the average environmental cost of new batteries. Am I missing something?

Agreed in no way possible should a Tesla need a new battery after only 200,00 kms.

So 500,000 miles in a Tesla the BMW will actually probably be 3 engines deep. These charts are so misleading. After 200,000 kms the BMW will probably need a new engine. So technically the battery in the 100D will outlast 3 BMW engines. How big is that Green comparison hole now. After 200,000 kms people on average are only seeing 7% battery degradation. I have 35,000 kms on mine in the last year. I have seen zero battery degradation thus far. Lett's not forget that my vehicle charges with over 90% renewable energy. Put that in your pipe and smoke it...
screen-shot-2018-04-14-at-2-54-02-pm.jpg
 
Agreed in no way possible should a Tesla need a new battery after only 200,00 kms.

So 500,000 miles in a Tesla the BMW will actually probably be 3 engines deep. These charts are so misleading. After 200,000 kms the BMW will probably need a new engine. So technically the battery in the 100D will outlast 3 BMW engines. How big is that Green comparison hole now. After 200,000 kms people on average are only seeing 7% battery degradation. I have 35,000 kms on mine in the last year. I have seen zero battery degradation thus far. Lett's not forget that my vehicle charges with over 90% renewable energy. Put that in your pipe and smoke it...

You are "lucky" in a way that you live in a cold climate. Batteries hold up well there regarding calendar aging. Not so in Phoenix where 100F+ is common for months. I think a battery that dies in 10 years in Phoenix could have lived 15 years in Vancouver. And given that the roads are salted there up north, 15 years is pretty much the end of life for a car due to rust.

One hint that current batteries don't last forever is that USCAR USCAR: Energy Storage System Goals targets 15 years calendar life for advanced EV batteries from 2020 and 10 years for cheap & fast charge batteries from 2023.

Also a general observation is that higher energy density batteries have shorter life span. Tesla uses the highest energy density type.

The chart you posted is based on what remaining miles the car shows when fully charged. That does not equal to the battery capacity. The shape however is similar. They lose capacity faster in the first couple of months. Then the speed of degradation slows down, but there is a point where it starts accelerating again.

Check out Tesla Bjorn's test. He measured his X at 75k km and found 6% degradation while the range decreased 3% only.

 
You are "lucky" in a way that you live in a cold climate. Batteries hold up well there regarding calendar aging. Not so in Phoenix where 100F+ is common for months. I think a battery that dies in 10 years in Phoenix could have lived 15 years in Vancouver. And given that the roads are salted there up north, 15 years is pretty much the end of life for a car due to rust.

One hint that current batteries don't last forever is that USCAR USCAR: Energy Storage System Goals targets 15 years calendar life for advanced EV batteries from 2020 and 10 years for cheap & fast charge batteries from 2023.

Also a general observation is that higher energy density batteries have shorter life span. Tesla uses the highest energy density type.

The chart you posted is based on what remaining miles the car shows when fully charged. That does not equal to the battery capacity. The shape however is similar. They lose capacity faster in the first couple of months. Then the speed of degradation slows down, but there is a point where it starts accelerating again.

Check out Tesla Bjorn's test. He measured his X at 75k km and found 6% degradation while the range decreased 3% only.



Also there is a difference if the car was charged from 0 to 100% or from 20 to 80%. It would be nice to have some easily accessible log regarding how the battery was treated when purchasing a second hand car.
 
You are "lucky" in a way that you live in a cold climate. Batteries hold up well there regarding calendar aging. Not so in Phoenix where 100F+ is common for months. I think a battery that dies in 10 years in Phoenix could have lived 15 years in Vancouver. And given that the roads are salted there up north, 15 years is pretty much the end of life for a car due to rust.

One hint that current batteries don't last forever is that USCAR USCAR: Energy Storage System Goals targets 15 years calendar life for advanced EV batteries from 2020 and 10 years for cheap & fast charge batteries from 2023.

Also a general observation is that higher energy density batteries have shorter life span. Tesla uses the highest energy density type.

The chart you posted is based on what remaining miles the car shows when fully charged. That does not equal to the battery capacity. The shape however is similar. They lose capacity faster in the first couple of months. Then the speed of degradation slows down, but there is a point where it starts accelerating again.

Check out Tesla Bjorn's test. He measured his X at 75k km and found 6% degradation while the range decreased 3% only.


The vehicle is always parked indoors. Most of the vehicles in Canada are in heated garages their entire life so they are not outside much. Majority of people are surprised in just how clean some of the vehicles are in Canada. In Vancouver we don't see much snow and some years none. The only vehicle that sees snow I drive is my work vehicles and pickups. Take this vehicle as an example I have. It's a 1993 Mustang LX coupe 5.0. 140,000 kms on it and absolutely no rust on it. One owner Garaged it's entire life and still original paint.
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The vehicle is always parked indoors. Most of the vehicles in Canada are in heated garages their entire life so they are not outside much. Majority of people are surprised in just how clean some of the vehicles are in Canada. In Vancouver we don't see much snow and some years none. The only vehicle that sees snow I drive is my work vehicles and pickups. Take this vehicle as an example I have. It's a 1993 Mustang LX coupe 5.0. 140,000 kms on it and absolutely no rust on it. One owner Garaged it's entire life and still original paint.


Nice. My experience in Toronto area is quite different.
 
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