Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

[Canuck]

I was just asking the question... Just trying to find where the line is drawn.

Fair enough. It is a good question. Sorry to be so blunt sometimes.

 

[PowerSource]

Seriously? You can't see the difference? I doubt you will find any good lawyer to make that argument in your defence, which is the real issue. Sure, you can pay lawyers to argue almost anything but the good ones want to win, and not argue nonsense.

Which brings us to the real issue... it's not the nuanced legal arguments but the fact that Tesla likely won't sit on its hands and allow unlocking without taking action. If that's a risk you're willing to take, go for it.

I'll be making the popcorn.

people have unlocked AP and the extra capacity battery pack... those individuals just aren't stupid enough to post about it publicly. I know people that have gotten cease and desists when they have posted about similar activities from Tesla.

 

[demundus]

I've posted pictures in other threads of my car's displays showing a configuration Tesla hadn't yet released, so I'll consider that it's well known I have. If you doubt it... *shrug* not my problem.

Missed it. Last I remember you were disabling nags

My adventures in gaining control of my car

Which thread has you in developer mode?

 

[Manzacoty]

Actually the reverse is true. The law states it's ok, it's very obviously morally ok as they sold me the whole car, so I can't come up with any possible reason not to.

This is no different than modding an ICE to produce more horsepower when the manufacturer also sells a more expensive car with a bigger engine. It's not my job to ensure they make money.

Tesla's revenue generating choices are not my concern, I'm not responsible for their poor choice of business model (giving away 15 free kWh of battery to every 60 owner in the hopes that a few of them will pay for it later? batteries are expensive, that's a horrible model)

Interesting points. But let's run with your theory. Why couldn't you just roll your odometer back on your car from 100k to 10k? You own the car - why couldn't you do that? The illegal part comes in when you try and sell the car. I see modding your car under the same circumstances.

 

[PowerSource]

Interesting points. But let's run with your theory. Why couldn't you just roll your odometer back on your car from 100k to 10k? You own the car - why couldn't you do that? The illegal part comes in when you try and sell the car. I see modding your car under the same circumstances.

That is a different ball game; odometer rollback is a clear cut fraud/felony, same with title washing etc
It is against the law to roll back the odometer.

 

[Manzacoty]

That is a different ball game; odometer rollback is a clear cut fraud/felony, same with title washing etc
It is against the law to roll back the odometer.

That's pretty much my point. I get there are two camps here and there clearly isn't a 100% certainty on legality, morals, etc. In those cases I always go with the golden rule on how would I want to be treated. If you made/sold this car, how would you want your customers to treat you?

I know the answers will be different for all and I certainly wouldn't tell on you or try to bring action for modding.

"We can afford to lose money – even a lot of money. But we can’t afford to lose reputation – even a shred of reputation." - Warren Buffet

 

[tga]

Oh, and by the way, it is illegal buy a 60 battery and unlock it to a 75. I argued over and over on the satellite forums about it being in illegal in Canada to get US satellite signals (that you can't even buy in Canada) and I lost at both lower court levels then won on appeal to Supreme Court of Canada. So it was a long road. The wheels of justice move slowly.

IANAL (nor do I play one on TV). I'm not asking to stir the pot. I'm honestly curious.

I get that, in the two cases you mention, Tesla and satellite TV companies could sue in civil court for damages. But are these actions "illegal"? To my (layman's) mind, "illegal" means the actions violate criminal law, and subject you to criminal, not civil, penalties.

Unless there's a law that defines these actions as illegal, they're not illegal, right?

 

[Jashev]

Are they? Is there some part of any of the agreements that specifically states that as a 60 owner I'm not allowed to use the additional 15kWh? Merely charging $7k to unlock that is not a sufficient statement that I'm not allowed to unlock it myself.

Doesn't have to. It says you are buying a 60kw car and can pay x dollars to make it a 75. That's pretty specific.

 

[PowerSource]

That's pretty much my point. I get there are two camps here and there clearly isn't a 100% certainty on legality, morals, etc. In those cases I always go with the golden rule on how would I want to be treated. If you made/sold this car, how would you want your customers to treat you?

I know the answers will be different for all and I certainly wouldn't tell on you or try to bring action for modding.

"We can afford to lose money – even a lot of money. But we can’t afford to lose reputation – even a shred of reputation." - Warren Buffet

So if one were to buy a 60kwh car (that can be upgraded to 75kwh) and re-purposes the pack for a solar project or something like that and uses the full capacity would that be illegal? The hardware is purchased, and an owner can take apart their car and do whatever they please. The owner never requested to have 75kwh of cells or AP hardware, that was a decision by Tesla.

If the original owner infringes on the EULA (or whatever Tesla calls it) then perhaps that is illegal. Merely taking apart the car and using the parts in some manner has been done for over 100 years in the automotive industry. There is no law against that.

 

[Max*]

so I guess overclocking a processor could also potentially be theft? Since you did not pay for that extra performance?

I see where you're trying to go, but it's not a valid analogy.

The manufacturers put a limit on the power of the processor to where they think it's safe/will have a lower MTBF. The CPU has the ability to go faster, at the risk of cooking it without proper cooling. In addition, many CPUs now have OC functionality built in that a 7-year old kid can do it by clicking a couple button.

The more applicable analogy up-thread is tuning the ECU on your car.

 

[PowerSource]

I see where you're trying to go, but it's not a valid analogy.

The manufacturers put a limit on the power of the processor to where they think it's safe/will have a lower MTBF. The CPU has the ability to go faster, at the risk of cooking it without proper cooling. In addition, many CPUs now have OC functionality built in that a 7-year old kid can do it by clicking a couple button.

The more applicable analogy up-thread is tuning the ECU on your car.

Not true, many processor manufacturers lock the core speeds and you have to pay extra to get an unlocked variant. If a manufacturer did not want you to overclock any of their processors, they would not sell unlocked versions (to make it more difficult to overclock). Further many manufacturers sell the same processors; they just cripple them in the firmware (very similar to what Tesla is doing here).

I.e. Crippleware,this has been around for 30 years in the computer industry.

 

[stopcrazypp]

so I guess overclocking a processor could also potentially be theft? Since you did not pay for that extra performance?

Processors are designed to allow for overclocking, so I don't see how this analogy works. Tesla however definitely did not intend people to just hack their software to unlock certain features.

 

[green1]

If I roll back the odometer, no law is broken until I sell the vehicle. Then the law is in place to protect the buyer of the vehicle.
If I unlock the extra potential of the car, no law is broken ever. There is no need to protect the buyer of the vehicle as giving them 75kWh instead of 60 does not harm them in any way.

 

[PowerSource]

Processors are designed to allow for overclocking, so I don't see how this analogy works. Tesla however definitely did not intend people to just hack their software to unlock certain features.

The Model S P100D was not designed for ludicrous mode?

A recent production Model S 60kwh is not designed to use the full 75kwh pack?

A Model S with AP hardware is not designed to use autopilot?

If someone uses proprietary Tesla code to unlock these features (their IP) then that would be clear cut. If someone unlocks these features with their own methods....

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I'm all for it... show me how to enable the hidden P100D in my P85. Please! lol

 

[stopcrazypp]

If I roll back the odometer, no law is broken until I sell the vehicle. Then the law is in place to protect the buyer of the vehicle.

IANAL but odometer tampering is illegal regardless if you sell the vehicle or not. This is because some people tamper it to get around a lease provision or a warranty provision.
THE FEDERAL ODOMETER TAMPERING STATUTES | CIVIL | Department of Justice

49 U.S. Code § 32703
A person may not—
(2) disconnect, reset, alter, or have disconnected, reset, or altered, an odometer of a motor vehicle intending to change the mileage registered by the odometer;
49 U.S. Code § 32703 - Preventing tampering

If I unlock the extra potential of the car, no law is broken ever. There is no need to protect the buyer of the vehicle as giving them 75kWh instead of 60 does not harm them in any way.

Are you a lawyer? I would not say that it violates no laws unless you have actually looked at it. Supposedly Tesla have sent C&D letters to people and they stopped the hacking, so Tesla must have some legal basis for doing so.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

If I roll back the odometer, no law is broken until I sell the vehicle. Then the law is in place to protect the buyer of the vehicle.

Your false odometer reading can also be used to obtain warranty work when you were not otherwise entitled. It can be used to file false tire tread warranty claims. I would say that any time you provide a faulty odometer reading to a service provider, it could be seen as committing fraud. The law is not just there to protect consumers.

 

[green1]

Are you a lawyer? I would not say that it violates no laws unless you have actually looked at it

it's been looked at extensively in this very thread. However if you are so certain that it breaks a law despite all the evidence so far. POST THE LAW YOU THINK IT VIOLATES!!!!!!!

This is how laws work, nothing is just "illegal" without a law. If you think something is illegal, it must violate a law, find that law and I'll either explain why it doesn't apply, or admit that you are right.

. Supposedly Tesla have sent C&D letters to people and they stopped the hacking, so Tesla must have some legal basis for doing so.

Proof? I've seen no evidence that anyone has been sent a C&D and then stopped hacking. I have seen one person who entered an agreement with Tesla that prohibits him from telling other people how to modify their vehicles in exchange for some unspecified compensation, but he is very obviously still modifying his own vehicle, and has been known to actually do so to other people's vehicles as well. Additionally Tesla has posted open invitations asking people to hack their vehicles.

 

[green1]

Your false odometer reading can also be used to obtain warranty work when you were not otherwise entitled. It can be used to file false tire tread warranty claims. I would say that any time you provide a faulty odometer reading to a service provider, it could be seen as committing fraud. The law is not just there to protect consumers.

Exactly, the law is to protect consumers. Hence why there's no law saying you can't upgrade your battery pack, because there's no party that can be harmed by it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Model S P100D was not designed for ludicrous mode?

A recent production Model S 60kwh is not designed to use the full 75kwh pack?

A Model S with AP hardware is not designed to use autopilot?

No, that's not what I am saying. Processors are designed to be overclocked by the end user. It's only a click of a button in the BIOS.

Tesla however did not design their software limited features to be unlocked for free. If Tesla added a button in the car to unlock extra power for free (such as the recent Ludicrous+) that is the same thing as your overclocking analogy. However, the ludicrous mode, 75kWh, autopilot require payment to unlock. You are circumventing that by not paying. The closest analogy I see is to pirating software.