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Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
it's been looked at extensively in this very thread. However if you are so certain that it breaks a law despite all the evidence so far. POST THE LAW YOU THINK IT VIOLATES!!!!!!!

This is how laws work, nothing is just "illegal" without a law. If you think something is illegal, it must violate a law, find that law and I'll either explain why it doesn't apply, or admit that you are right.


Proof? I've seen no evidence that anyone has been sent a C&D and then stopped hacking. I have seen one person who entered an agreement with Tesla that prohibits him from telling other people how to modify their vehicles in exchange for some unspecified compensation, but he is very obviously still modifying his own vehicle, and has been known to actually do so to other people's vehicles as well. Additionally Tesla has posted open invitations asking people to hack their vehicles.
I ask simply because you made a similar claim about odometers which turns out completely wrong (it does violate a law to tamper with one even if you don't sell your vehicle).

And on the subject, someone else posted a law that this potentially violates:
If there is a method of securing the software against tampering and you circumvent it in any way (even if the security is flimsy or stupid), you are violating the DMCA. While some believe a modification in the past 5 years allows automotive hacking, it explicitly exempts the kind of activity that could potentially affect the safety of a vehicle. Thus changing the avatar of your car to yellow or green or another Bond vehicle is allowed. Anything further than that invites a criminal trial where your freedom is put in jeopardy.
 
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Manzacoty

Member
Nov 15, 2016
253
209
Dallas
So if one were to buy a 60kwh car (that can be upgraded to 75kwh) and re-purposes the pack for a solar project or something like that and uses the full capacity would that be illegal? The hardware is purchased, and an owner can take apart their car and do whatever they please. The owner never requested to have 75kwh of cells or AP hardware, that was a decision by Tesla.

If the original owner infringes on the EULA (or whatever Tesla calls it) then perhaps that is illegal. Merely taking apart the car and using the parts in some manner has been done for over 100 years in the automotive industry. There is no law against that.

My personal opinion is that is not an issue. Hacking your car to avoid paying $7k to get the remaining battery (illegal/immoral). Dissembling an $80k car to use the battery in your house (not illegal/immoral).
 
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ABC2D

Member
Dec 19, 2016
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I've been following this thread from the beginning and was curious if this problem can be formulated a different way. How about this:
  • You buy a house and the living room has two light fixtures - one is 60 watts and another 15 watts

  • The price for the house with 60 watts fixture is $X and you can upgrade to enable the second fixture for certain amount of money.

  • The switch for the 15 watts fixture is removed and replaced with a blank cover plate. Once you pay the upgrade fee to the builder - they send a tech to remove the blank plate and install an actual switch so you can use the 15 watts light fixture.
So, what "illegal" crowd is saying that it is "illegal" (forget about morality for a sec) for me to replace the blank plate with an actual switch (the same type switch the builder would use) to activate that 15 watts fixture. Is that correct? If illegal, why?

Would it be stealing? Stealing what, exactly?

Would that self-modification be immoral?
 

Max*

Charging
Apr 8, 2015
6,670
3,719
NoVa
So, what "illegal" crowd is saying that it is "illegal" (forget about morality for a sec) for me to replace the blank plate with an actual switch (the same type switch the builder would use) to activate that 15 watts fixture. Is that correct? If illegal, why?
Yes.

Depending on your local building code, you may need to pull a permit and hire an electrician ;)

Though almost no one does.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
If someone writes their own firmware and or has their own hardware that communicates with these subsystems/hardware they purchased then they are merely using the hardware that came with the vehicle. If they are using Tesla internal/specific code (obtained from Tesla) then you are correct.

The real way Tesla could stop this, if they so deemed it necessary, is to get NHTSA involved. They would likely send the party that unlocked these features a special inquiry ensuring that their methods met FMVSS standards. Once this happens the hacking would stop pretty quickly. Why waste Tesla's resources suing these companies/individuals when they can use the government to protect their products. IMO that would be the smart way to go.
I agree if you write custom software that simply uses the hardware, then nothing is violated (I pointed out elsewhere, but at an extreme you can just pull out the pack or cells). But that does not appear to be the case here. The call is to hack the Tesla software.

As another points out, that would violate DMCA. And given a temporary exemption for ECUs, it would depend on what uses that exemption covers (I googled a bit and it seems it's intended to protect researchers who may need to tamper with software in order to find issues similar to VW's emissions cheat).
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
Pirating software involves making a copy of the software, and violates copyright law. No copies of any software are required here, so there is no relation in any way shape of form to copyright infringement. To conflate the two indicates a complete lack of understanding of what is being discussed here.

As for "a setting in the BIOS" is that really different than "a setting in the car software"? it's a simple setting right on the centre display after you log in. It's obviously designed to do it. If the processor manufacturer had also made the bios they probably wouldn't have included the option at all.
Pirating software does not require making a copy to violate copyright. I just looked a bit at the DMCA cases and phone unlocking is covered (an exemption allows for circumventing as long as it is used solely for interoperability). So even unauthorized unlocking of features is consider a copyright violation.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
My personal opinion is that is not an issue. Hacking your car to avoid paying $7k to get the remaining battery (illegal/immoral). Dissembling an $80k car to use the battery in your house (not illegal/immoral).
It's a good thing the law doesn't revolve around your personal opinion. But if you think it's illegal. Please post the actual law that it violates (note, already covered and proven irrelevant are: DMCA, Copyright law, Laws against theft, laws against hacking, laws against murder, laws requiring modifications to be approved by the NHTSA, so you'll have to find something else.)
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,627
6,553
Chicago, IL
It's a good thing the law doesn't revolve around your personal opinion. But if you think it's illegal. Please post the actual law that it violates (note, already covered and proven irrelevant are: DMCA, Copyright law, Laws against theft, laws against hacking, laws against murder, laws requiring modifications to be approved by the NHTSA, so you'll have to find something else.)

Do you require a specific law to be written just for every little situation or are the ones you're disregarding just not explicit enough for you?

Here's the text: https://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Here's a quick primer:

"Section 1201(a)(1) provides in pertinent part that “[n]o person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under [title 17].” Under the statute, to “circumvent a technological measure” means “to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner.” (CITATION OMITTED)

A technological measure that “effectively controls access to a work” is one that “in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.”

Other parts of section 1201, by contrast, address the manufacture and provision of—or “trafficking” in—products and services designed for purposes of circumvention. Section 1201(a)(2) bars trafficking in products and services that are used to circumvent technological measures that control access to copyrighted works (for example, a password needed to open a media file), while section 1201(b) bars trafficking in products and services used to circumvent technological measures that protect the exclusive rights of the copyright owner in their works (for example, technology that prevents the work from being reproduced).

More broadly, activities conducted under the regulatory exemptions must still comply with other applicable laws, including non-copyright provisions. Thus, while an exemption may specifically reference other laws of particular concern, any activities conducted under an exemption must be otherwise lawful."

Federal Register :: Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies

Everyone can read about it and decide on their own. My personal, non-professional opinion, is that I wouldn't put my liberty at jeopardy nor should you doubt the efficacy of the US Marshals.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
It's a good thing the law doesn't revolve around your personal opinion. But if you think it's illegal. Please post the actual law that it violates (note, already covered and proven irrelevant are: DMCA, Copyright law, Laws against theft, laws against hacking, laws against murder, laws requiring modifications to be approved by the NHTSA, so you'll have to find something else.)
I don't see where it was proven that DMCA is irrelevant. In fact, it is explicitly clear that DMCA applies to hacking automobile software (given there is an explicit temporary exemption required to allow for hacks of such software). Whether it applies to this case would depend on the specific provisions of the exemption (as far as I can tell, none of the exemptions are blanket exemptions, meaning they only apply if used in a certain way). Given IANAL I would not give too much further analysis, but I have not seen an analysis of the DMCA exemption that says it would exempt hacking for the purposes of getting a paid feature for free (the clear example of exemption I read about is for security researchers which @wk057 may fall under; this is also what Tesla says is allowed in terms of encouraging whitehat hackers).
 

Glitch

Member
Oct 28, 2014
948
242
The Netherlands, Europe
Actually people with Volkswagen en Audi's are doing it for years enabling the features via VAGCOM. For example the carkit is by default installed when you order a certain part but not activated. You can simple activate it via VAGCOM.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
Actually people with Volkswagen en Audi's are doing it for years enabling the features via VAGCOM. For example the carkit is by default installed when you order a certain part but not activated. You can simple activate it via VAGCOM.
Given you are in Europe, DMCA does not apply at all to you given it is a US law. I googled a bit and couldn't find anything about "carkit" (other than generic bluetooth kits). Maybe that is a European feature?
 

PowerSource

Member
Nov 30, 2016
111
68
Orange County, CA
NHTSA does apply to this
See 49 U.S.C. § 30118
49 U.S.C. § 30102(a)(2), (8) and 49 U.S.C. §§ 30112(a)(3), 30118(b).

Green1 isn't reading what is being written just keeps posting the same narrative

If you are modifying or replacing equipment/software on any vehicle it is applicable regardless. The software/hardware can interact adversely with existing subsystems of the vehicle.

I posted it previously and they just re-posted the same narrative :( No point in posting information if they do not read what is being written

Might as well say they are right and apologize
 
Last edited:

AmpedRealtor

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2013
6,343
3,315
Phoenix, AZ
One day someone might develop alternative software that can completely overwrite and replace Tesla's software. If you are installing completely new and different software on your car - software that may unlock or utilize unpaid for features - is this illegal or immoral in any way? There is no violation of Tesla's copyright by deleting its software and using someone else's. Of course such an option does not currently exist, but it might someday.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
Carkit is Handsfree calling.
I googled it. In the USA, handsfree calling is included for free with the MMI system, so any activation of the feature is simply enabling a free feature, so the situation does not apply:
Audi MMI® Help & MMI® Video Tutorials | Audi USA

In Europe, it costs 270 EUR, so it is a similar situation to Tesla's, but again the DMCA does not apply in Europe:
Bluetooth hands-free system 8K1051473 > Audi Genuine Accessories - Vorsprung durch Technik
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,875
4,801
One day someone might develop alternative software that can completely overwrite and replace Tesla's software. If you are installing completely new and different software on your car - software that may unlock or utilize unpaid for features - is this illegal or immoral in any way? There is no violation of Tesla's copyright by deleting its software and using someone else's. Of course such an option does not currently exist, but it might someday.
I don't think anyone is claiming that specific situation (completely different custom software) would be illegal or immoral in anyway. That would be little different from people who are already ripping out the motor/inverters or battery pack/modules/cells and using it elsewhere.

What we are discussing here however is hacking Tesla's software to unlock paid features for free (the clear unambiguous example is autopilot, where the core value is in the software itself).
 

PowerSource

Member
Nov 30, 2016
111
68
Orange County, CA
I don't think anyone is claiming that specific situation (completely different custom software) would be illegal or immoral in anyway. That would be little different from people who are already ripping out the motor/inverters or battery pack/modules/cells and using it elsewhere.

What we are discussing here however is hacking Tesla's software to unlock paid features for free (the clear unambiguous example is autopilot, where the core value is in the software itself).
Unlocking the software (not using the proprietary Tesla mechanism) would technically have to comply with various FMVSS regulations set by NHTSA. The hacker/unlocker could be classified as the "manufacturer" of the hack (which would be classified as replacement vehicle equipment- i.e. the hack supplants FMVSS compliant proprietary Tesla code/functions) and thus must comply with 49 U.S.C. § 30118.

So unless this code has been hardened and there is a paper trail to show that it is compliant; NHTSA could restrict the use of this hack.

OTOH if the hack is based on proprietary Tesla IP (the manner in which they unlock key features) then that would be straight theft.
 

Glitch

Member
Oct 28, 2014
948
242
The Netherlands, Europe
I googled it. In the USA, handsfree calling is included for free with the MMI system, so any activation of the feature is simply enabling a free feature, so the situation does not apply:
Audi MMI® Help & MMI® Video Tutorials | Audi USA

In Europe, it costs 270 EUR, so it is a similar situation to Tesla's, but again the DMCA does not apply in Europe:
Bluetooth hands-free system 8K1051473 > Audi Genuine Accessories - Vorsprung durch Technik
Yes correct in the US the cars are standard supplied with more options, due to the fact they have to compete with Chevy cars that are cheapers and have a lot of options.
 

green1

Active Member
Mar 25, 2014
4,548
1,121
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Apparently I can't post 81 pages of legalese in this thread, but go actually read the DMCA exemption that specifically allows hacking your car.
https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf

The DMCA categorically doesn't apply.

It's not that I'm not reading. I am. This is 100% legal in every jurisdiction I'm aware of, and nobody has yet provided any law that says otherwise.
 
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Manzacoty

Member
Nov 15, 2016
253
209
Dallas
It's a good thing the law doesn't revolve around your personal opinion. But if you think it's illegal. Please post the actual law that it violates (note, already covered and proven irrelevant are: DMCA, Copyright law, Laws against theft, laws against hacking, laws against murder, laws requiring modifications to be approved by the NHTSA, so you'll have to find something else.)

They good thing about a personal opinion is that you're right 100% of the time. I don't care what you do with your car.

Just don't whine if Tesla refuses to service your car or you run into issues when you try and sell your car because you've hacked it up.

Or don't be surprised if Tesla doesn't want to sell you a car. I know I would fire you as a client.
 
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