Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

[Canuck]

Something tells me you can talk a lot of s*it, but you'd crap your pants the moment a lawyer from X, Y, and Z associates writes you an email.

Better yet, you get sued. I remember this well:

DirecTV Sues Anyone Who Bought Smartcard Reader? - Slashdot

People that were tough guys sure changed their tune fast when they found out what it costs to hire a lawyer, or the headache involved in defending yourself, even though they were only "tinkering" and everything was perfectly legal. No one cares about what's legal or not when it comes to using a civil suit as a litigation tactic to punish. Most people have no idea of what is involved in taking these cases to trial to prove you did nothing wrong.

Well, that's a nice Christian attitude... Why don't you look down on this, from your high horse, Mr. 'MXWing'?

Why not just do good for the sake of doing good instead of invoking your religion, then doing to the other person what you complained they just did to you? You know, that golden rule thing... "do unto others..."

 

[MXWing]

Well, that's a nice Christian attitude. It's always surprising to me how so-called "Christians", revere the man as a god, but have a total disconnect from his teachings and believe the opposite.

What half here don't realize is that Tesla takes away key functionalities when they blacklist a car. Functionalities that have been bought and paid for. Are you hearin' the words what are comin' out my mouf?

Why don't you look down on this, from your high horse, Mr. 'MXWing'?

I never said I was a MODEL Christian. Just a forgiven one.

I did not say - "I hope you and your entire family dies in a flaming wreck because you stole autopilot from Tesla and it didn't work right." I just came down hard on vitriol, self righteousness and hubris. He WILL get humbled messing with things he should not be. That is the truth from a person who cares. Whether a person tries to root their car or not has no impact, positive or negative on me. I would say things in much stronger terms were it my child or someone acquainted with me that would do something so silly/effin stupid.

In regards to "blacklisting cars": Since owning and driving a Tesla is not a constitutional right, they can do whatever they want. Their cars, their rules. Even MORE REASON not to tinker with things you have no business doing.

Lotta people who aren't rooted in this thread (basically everyone) , commenting about what root/unlock might do to your Tesla.

I really don't know how it got to five pages myself.

If my son someday were to walk up to me one day and go - "Hey dad, I found out that instead of paying $5000 (on top of a 100k car) for software that drives me and my sister around, I can just jailbreak the car and activate it FOR FREE."

"Nothing is free and I KNOW I didn't raise a moron that has no concept of risk management." Discussion over.

 

[demundus]

If my son someday were to walk up to me one day and go - "Hey dad, I found out that instead of paying $5000 (on top of a 100k car) for software that drives me and my sister around, I can just jailbreak the car and activate it FOR FREE."

Let me give you some more practical examples:

1.) Out of warranty MCU breaks. Tesla wants $2900 to fix it AND they get to keep my old one, else its 5K to fix it.
2.) Navigation not enabled on a pre 2013, but is standard on every car since 2013. Tesla wants 2500 to enable.
3.) 2012 40kwh wants more battery (60 kwh pack limited to 40), Tesla says "10k please", despite only having sold ~400 and openly admitting it was a mistake.
4.) Owner wants spotify in the USA
5.) Owner bought a salvage, and needs access to do the repairs
6.) Owner wants to do some diagnosis after the car starts acting funny but is out of warranty and doesn't want to pay Tesla to read their own screen to them.
7.) Any self-done retrofits such as next-gen seats, upgraded IC (to a higher rez post 2014), add foglights to a non tech package car, etc

Some of these are my personal reasons, some of them are others, some I made up in the 3 minutes it took me to write this post.

No one with "root"/"jailbreak" is doing dumb *sugar* like disabling airbags or whatever else you all are dreaming up in this thread. Remember not everyone owner has a "100k car" and adding a 10k option to a 30k car is more motivating than your previous example.

 

[MXWing]

Let me give you some more practical examples:

1.) Out of warranty MCU breaks. Tesla wants $2900 to fix it AND they get to keep my old one, else its 5K to fix it.
2.) Navigation not enabled on a pre 2013, but is standard on every car since 2013. Tesla wants 2500 to enable.
3.) 2012 40kwh wants more battery (60 kwh pack limited to 40), Tesla says "10k please", despite only having sold ~400 and openly admitting it was a mistake.
4.) Owner wants spotify in the USA
5.) Owner bought a salvage, and needs access to do the repairs
6.) Owner wants to do some diagnosis after the car starts acting funny but is out of warranty and doesn't want to pay Tesla to read their own screen to them.
7.) Any self-done retrofits such as next-gen seats, upgraded IC (to a higher rez post 2014), add foglights to a non tech package car, etc

Some of these are my personal reasons, some of them are others, some I made up in the 3 minutes it took me to write this post.

No one with "root"/"jailbreak" is doing dumb *sugar* like disabling airbags or whatever else you all are dreaming up in this thread. Remember not everyone owner has a "100k car" and adding a 10k option to a 30k car is more motivating than your previous example.

How many owners of RS8s, Ferrari's and Lamborghini take their car to a $15 Jiffy Lube to change their oil? They generally operate like a Honda Civic. Part of the cost of ownership is paying more for that 'Ultimate Care' or 'Audi Care' where you pay a multiple more of what a service 'should cost'. They do to it for the piece of mind because their car was so expensive.

It is a CON of owning a Tesla but it comes with the territory - Tesla owns your car more than you own your car. You are more dependent on Tesla for your service needs than any other car manufacturer. Do I like it? NO. Do I see the reality? YES

I covered my general logic of why you can't mess with Tesla but to cover your 3 minute examples..

1.) I don't understand enough about MCUs to see if you can actually get it fixed outside of Tesla.
2.) Is worth being black listed by Tesla once they discover you stole $2500 worth of software from them?
3.) Assuming Tesla just doesn't shut your vehicle down completely, is it worth making your car persona non grata to them?
4.) Not worth the risk to my 70k car. I'll deal with the limitation.
5.) A Tesla is literally the last car on earth you'd want to get a salvage on. Its less than 'a car' but a software package wrapped around with a motor, battery and wheels.
6.) If you can do a read only operation that involves zero 'rooting' or modification of your Tesla, go right ahead. Car still gets over the air updates out of warranty so your car is still in the Tesla family. Not worth messing with a car, even one that is out of warranty, when it is a Tesla to be kicked out of the tribe.
7.) Things like changing incandescent bulbs to LEDS are in the realm of possibility. What has been proposed like turning on software features that you didn't pay for is worlds apart on the sensibility scale.

No one turns off airbags on purpose, but you never know what happens with unsanctioned code. Examples I am thinking of are more like

a.) - Tesla discovers on 11/10/2016 that the autopilot doesn't detect certain big rigs because they are so high up. The consequence is without an update, your car will try to drive under it. You downloaded the hack that was released in October.

If you think you can 'hack' your car and still receive all the updates, and go undetected by Tesla, I question how you were able to get yourself into a Tesla to begin with.

Being intelligent. Being wise. Being smart with money. Being ethical (especially with Donuts) NONE of those are qualifiers to own a Tesla. It's pretty clear a lot of people here are missing those things.

 

[HebrHmr]

How many owners of RS8s, Ferrari's and Lamborghini take their car to a $15 Jiffy Lube to change their oil? They generally operate like a Honda Civic. Part of the cost of ownership is paying more for that 'Ultimate Care' or 'Audi Care' where you pay a multiple more of what a service 'should cost'. They do to it for the piece of mind because their car was so expensive.

It is a CON of owning a Tesla but it comes with the territory - Tesla owns your car more than you own your car. You are more dependent on Tesla for your service needs than any other car manufacturer. Do I like it? NO. Do I see the reality? YES

I covered my general logic of why you can't mess with Tesla but to cover your 3 minute examples..

1.) I don't understand enough about MCUs to see if you can actually get it fixed outside of Tesla.
2.) Is worth being black listed by Tesla once they discover you stole $2500 worth of software from them?
3.) Assuming Tesla just doesn't shut your vehicle down completely, is it worth making your car persona non grata to them?
4.) Not worth the risk to my 70k car. I'll deal with the limitation.
5.) A Tesla is literally the last car on earth you'd want to get a salvage on. Its less than 'a car' but a software package wrapped around with a motor, battery and wheels.
6.) If you can do a read only operation that involves zero 'rooting' or modification of your Tesla, go right ahead. Car still gets over the air updates out of warranty so your car is still in the Tesla family. Not worth messing with a car, even one that is out of warranty, when it is a Tesla to be kicked out of the tribe.
7.) Things like changing incandescent bulbs to LEDS are in the realm of possibility. What has been proposed like turning on software features that you didn't pay for is worlds apart on the sensibility scale.

No one turns off airbags on purpose, but you never know what happens with unsanctioned code. Examples I am thinking of are more like

a.) - Tesla discovers on 11/10/2016 that the autopilot doesn't detect certain big rigs because they are so high up. The consequence is without an update, your car will try to drive under it. You downloaded the hack that was released in October.

If you think you can 'hack' your car and still receive all the updates, and go undetected by Tesla, I question how you were able to get yourself into a Tesla to begin with.

Being intelligent. Being wise. Being smart with money. Being ethical (especially with Donuts) NONE of those are qualifiers to own a Tesla. It's pretty clear a lot of people here are missing those things.

I don't think points 2 and 3 are ethical but the other points are completely reasonable IMO.

I think in addition to not having root access to their car, many people don't quite understand what that even means.

This isn't a code inject into the software or even modification of the software to operate outside of its intended use. Although that's feasible that isn't what we've been discussing in this thread. We're talking about people using scripts or vulnerabilities in the underlying OS to gain administrative access to their own system. Maybe they're just brute forcing the password on existing administrative logins. I don't know, I don't have my car yet.

Let's simplify this. Would all of you be ok if manufacturers prevented you from reading your own engine codes in an ICE?

 

[malcolm]

It's just a Pavlovian response.

Just the usual "if I can just own this next thing, my life will be perfect"

Through it, I regularly rationalize all sorts of nonsense.

And if I can justify/hustle it into a "bargain", so much the better.

And it's not even about the object.

I just really enjoy salivating over stuff.

It's addictive

 

[Cebe]

I find it convenient, for me as the owner, that I don't have to pay for the features I do not want, but, when reselling it, the buyer has an option to enable those features. I also find it convenient that one can enable some of the things after the fact. Especially when the features get into the five digits, maybe it helps to wait a few months and get some more money saved. Tesla finds it convenient, because it lets them keep chasing you and have a chance of up-selling way after you've left with your purchase. Tesla also finds it convenient because they can have a simplified assembly line. Imagine if the car paint color was a software option (I'm sure it'll come one day.)

In short, I believe there is a lot of convenience for owners and Tesla when they can install the hardware and just mess with the software to configure cars differently.

A few people using features they didn't pay for is par for the course. It's not going to bother them. Chances are they won't take you to court. If somebody goes public with the "here is how to get these features for free", Tesla is probably going to get somewhat upset. If somebody sues Tesla to try to make a point that enabling the features they didn't pay for is OK, I don't think they (Tesla) will settle

If, however, it gets to the point where the way to get the unpaid features for free is public, or legal, Tesla is just going to stop doing the software enabled features. The prices will go up, nobody will have a chance of buying a smaller battery, and upgrading if they find they have the need (or they get the extra money.)

I suppose some people can choose to believe it is OK to have a 75kWh battery when you paid for a 60kWh battery, because you know how to break the locks, and they never signed anything that explicitly said they shouldn't do it.

 

[demundus]

I question how you were able to get yourself into a Tesla to begin with.

Easy, I bought it. Which further means I own it... the whole battery, all the parts, and the software loaded onto the MCU that I also (you guessed it) own.

2.) Is worth being black listed by Tesla once they discover you stole $2500 worth of software from them?
3.) Assuming Tesla just doesn't shut your vehicle down completely, is it worth making your car persona non grata to them?

What do you mean by blacklisting. What do you think happens to your car if Tesla "shuts it down completely"? You think I'll wake up one morning and my car isn't going to turn on? I didn't steal any software from them, it came pre-loaded on the car, with the box for navigation unchecked.

In the end, after reading this quote, I am pretty sure this thread is toast for me.

a.) - Tesla discovers on 11/10/2016 that the autopilot doesn't detect certain big rigs because they are so high up. The consequence is without an update, your car will try to drive under it. You downloaded the hack that was released in October.

The underlined portion of this quote specifically calls out how you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[MXWing]

The underlined portion of this quote specifically calls out how you have no idea what you're talking about.

I am eagerly waiting to see if you are going to "unlock anything" on your Tesla if the means were available or just keep talking *sugar* when there is no actionable followup.

 

[Dr. Smoke]

Why not just do good for the sake of doing good instead of invoking your religion, then doing to the other person what you complained they just did to you? You know, that golden rule thing... "do unto others..."

This is not my religion. It's MXWing's, which I'd inferred from his posts. My goal was to illustrate the disconnect of his particular god's teachings, from his own practices and behavior. But then as always he doesn't recognize that.

I never said I was a MODEL Christian. Just a forgiven one.

That's what you think...

In regards to "blacklisting cars": Since owning and driving (sic) a Tesla is not a constitutional (sic) right, they can do whatever they want. Their cars, their rules. Even MORE REASON not to tinker with things you have no business doing.

Correction: My car. My rules.

It is quite understandable to be frightened of things that you do not understand. It's a common everyday occurrence. But you don't have a Constitutional right to pass a negative judgment on those who do understand. And when you venture to do so, most recognize that it has no value.

How you can rationalize Tesla taking away functions that have been bought and paid for by a customer... defies rational explanation. Are you here to just stir up trouble MXWing? That's what this really is, isn't it.

 

[demundus]

I am eagerly waiting to see if you are going to "unlock anything" on your Tesla if the means were available or just keep talking *sugar* when there is no actionable followup.

I didn't want you to have to wait too long...

 

[MXWing]

Correction: My car. My rules.

It is quite understandable to be frightened of things that you do not understand. It's a common everyday occurrence. But you don't have a Constitutional right to pass a negative judgment on those who do understand. And when you venture to do so, most recognize that it has no value.

How you can rationalize Tesla taking away functions that have been bought and paid for by a customer... defies rational explanation. Are you here to just stir up trouble MXWing? That's what this really is, isn't it.

I rented a cabin at Big Bear based on a advertisement with a list of amenities. I show up and found there was a sauna room that was listed on the amenities. There is a sign that says it was not advertised in the rental so please don't use it.

I could be a douche and say stuff like "MY RENTAL, MY RULES" and use the room as I please. Or respect the owner didn't want me using it and didn't charge me for it.

How hard is this to understand? There are lots of tools at Teslas disposal to make your life expensive and difficult such as voiding your warranties.

I didn't want you to have to wait too long...

Thanks and that's cool for sharing. It's stealing if you didn't license it - but I don't think that detail is a consideration for you.
Possible Tesla doesn't check your BMax value relative to what you purchased. Maybe they will tomorrow, maybe not.

 

[TesTaipei]

A related article.

Do you own your Tesla or does your Tesla own you? - TESLARATI
https://apple.news/ACDSmelPVPqemGgCJqGMrAA

 

[rpmccormick]

I rented a cabin at Big Bear based on a advertisement with a list of amenities. I show up and found there was a sauna room that was listed on the amenities. There is a sign that says it was not advertised in the rental so please don't use it.

I could be a douche and say stuff like "MY RENTAL, MY RULES" and use the room as I please. Or respect the owner didn't want me using it and didn't charge me for it.

That makes total sense, if you are renting/leasing... on the other hand, if you own the vehicle, it is more like you purchased a house and the previous owner said you can't use one of the rooms, because they lowered their price for you. Does that make sense?

Thanks and that's cool for sharing. It's stealing if you didn't license it - but I don't think that detail is a consideration for you.

I don't think it is stealing anymore than opening a room in a house you bought is. That detail is a huge consideration for me, and your insistence that it is stealing when it is not (it should be ILLEGAL for Tesla or anyone to do BS things like that) is at least as abhorrent to me as us "thieves" are to you.

 

[Swift]

So using your thinking, if I buy a house and there's a gas line from the utility that is turned off at the curb (but the valve is still on the property), I should be able to cut the seal, turn it on and use it to power the new gas grill and generator I just bought from Home Depot.

You don't think that's stealing? I've seen plenty of people prosecuted for that.

That makes total sense, if you are renting/leasing... on the other hand, if you own the vehicle, it is more like you purchased a house and the previous owner said you can't use one of the rooms, because they lowered their price for you. Does that make sense?



I don't think it is stealing anymore than opening a room in a house you bought is. That detail is a huge consideration for me, and your insistence that it is stealing when it is not (it should be ILLEGAL for Tesla or anyone to do BS things like that) is at least as abhorrent to me as us "thieves" are to you.

 

[green1]

So using your thinking, if I buy a house and there's a gas line from the utility that is turned off at the curb (but the valve is still on the property), I should be able to cut the seal, turn it on and use it to power the new gas grill and generator I just bought from Home Depot.

You don't think that's stealing? I've seen plenty of people prosecuted for that.

They are not prosecuted for turning the valve, they're prosecuted for taking the gas that's not on their property and bringing it on to their property.

In this case there's an empty gas reservoir on your property already, that you pay to fill, and then use the gas you already paid for to move your car. Very different.

But really, what does your sales paperwork say?

Did you sign something that indicates that there is any part of the vehicle that Tesla still owns? or did they sell you the entire vehicle? Unless you signed something saying that Tesla retains some rights to the car, you own every part of it. so enabling an extra feature after purchase without their blessing is perfectly fair.

Now you want to talk theft, I paid for 85kWh, and only got 77!

 

[Swift]

They are not prosecuted for turning the valve, they're prosecuted for taking the gas that's not on their property and bringing it on to their property.

In this case there's an empty gas reservoir on your property already, that you pay to fill, and then use the gas you already paid for to move your car. Very different.

But really, what does your sales paperwork say?

Did you sign something that indicates that there is any part of the vehicle that Tesla still owns? or did they sell you the entire vehicle? Unless you signed something saying that Tesla retains some rights to the car, you own every part of it. so enabling an extra feature after purchase without their blessing is perfectly fair.

Disagree with you. I guess it's because my parents raised me not to steal. Trying to raise my kids the same.

Let's say in this case, the paperwork says the customer purchased a S60. The purchase order and bill of sale say S60. The customer is told about the battery upgrade path to the 75. It's on the website as a purchase option for them. The customer hacks the car to get the 75 battery without paying. This is stealing and is prosecutable. If you disagree, buy a S60, hack it, post pictures here and we'll see what happens.

Now you want to talk theft, I paid for 85kWh, and only got 77!

Disagree with you again. I can replicate the range they committed to on the website. However, if you really feel they stole from you, the civil and criminal court system is as ready to serve you as it is Tesla in the case above.

 

[Jashev]

At a minimum, Tesla would absolutely be within their rights to void your warranty as stated in their warranty agreement:

"Any repair, alteration or modification of the vehicle that was made......" It's pretty common practice in the industry to void warranties on vehicles that are modified either physically or through software. Tesla would also be in within their rights to withold any future software downloads from the vehicle. I have a Chevy diesel pickup whose ECU I changed. Chevy de-tunes the Duramax engines. My modifications gave me access to the additional hp and torque which the engine was capable of producing. I knew ahead of time that they won't work on the vehicle nor will they give me any software updates once this was done. I made the choice and recognize that my warranty (which is expired now anyway) would not have covered anything engine or drivetrain related.

In a case where you are hacking their software to gain access to a feature which would normally cost $10,000, I believe that you could face some serious liability. I have been in the software business for 35 years and we have used flag enabled features in various software products forever. If one of our end users hacked the software to access a feature they didn't pay for, we would shut their system down.

 

[green1]

If you disagree, buy a S60, hack it, post pictures here and we'll see what happens.

I don't have the cash to spare, but others have done exactly that and Tesla hasn't said a word, so you fail there.

As for prosecutable, only if your documentation says that there is some part of the car that Tesla still owns. In my jurisdiction the law specifically states that if a company delivers an item that I did not request, I have no obligation to return it or pay for it, and am allowed to use it or discard it as I see fit.
If you disagree, show me what law states otherwise.

Disagree with you again. I can replicate the range they committed to on the website.

they didn't just quote a range (which by the way, they did NOT deliver, as I can not go the number of km they claim in normal driving conditions) they quoted a specific battery capacity, something they did NOT deliver on.

However, if you really feel they stole from you, the civil and criminal court system is as ready to serve you as it is Tesla in the case above.

And where did I say that I was not availing myself of that system?

 

[green1]

At a minimum, Tesla would absolutely be within their rights to void your warranty as stated in their warranty agreement:

"Any repair, alteration or modification of the vehicle that was made......" It's pretty common practice in the industry to void warranties on vehicles that are modified either physically or through software. Tesla would also be in within their rights to withold any future software downloads from the vehicle. I have a Chevy diesel pickup whose ECU I changed. Chevy de-tunes the Duramax engines. My modifications gave me access to the additional hp and torque which the engine was capable of producing. I knew ahead of time that they won't work on the vehicle nor will they give me any software updates once this was done. I made the choice and recognize that my warranty (which is expired now anyway) would not have covered anything engine or drivetrain related.

In a case where you are hacking their software to gain access to a feature which would normally cost $10,000, I believe that you could face some serious liability. I have been in the software business for 35 years and we have used flag enabled features in various software products forever. If one of our end users hacked the software to access a feature they didn't pay for, we would shut their system down.

Their warranty disclaimer is useless as it doesn't supercede the law which states that aftermarket modifications do not void any warranty unless the modification can be proven to have caused the issue, with the onus on the company to provide the proof.