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Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

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Interesting. I'll be curious to see how this shapes up. I imagine Tesla would take a similar route to any claims against them for the 85's in this case as, for example, hard drive manufacturers do. We all know that our 1TB harddrives will only have on the order of 900GB of usable space. That goes double for, say, 32GB phones that only have ~20GB available after the formatting and OS take their share.
It's somewhat different though (I'm not taking a side, so don't throw me into this mess) - HD manufacturers use decimal capacity (i.e. "1,000" instead of "1,024") leading to the difference, and phone manufacturers actually do give you the "full" (minus the space caveat) storage, it's just that the OS is also loaded into some of it.

So I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic, but these examples are not ideal.
 
In light of the legal claims, I'd appreciate it if all parties could refrain from accusing people of illegal actions until they can find such a law.

Sorry, but unless a mod tells me what to refrain from posting, I won't be listening to you. But there is a solution -- it's called the "ignore" button. You can use it with me and then you don't need to be reading things that upset you. Why it upsets you so much should tell you something right there, in my view.

For me, anyone buying a 60 (and obviously paying less because of that fact) then unlocking it, is an immoral and unethical thief, both civilly and criminally. However, if someone said it's not illegal (both civilly or criminally) to do this in China (as opposed to the US or Canada) I would agree with them. But it's still immoral and unethical, again in my view.

People will always justify their actions by claiming there is no law against it. Just because there's no law in China about ripping off intellectual property, it's still immoral and unethical. Just like I don't need religion to do the right thing, I don't need laws either -- even though there are laws.
 
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It's somewhat different though (I'm not taking a side, so don't throw me into this mess) - HD manufacturers use decimal capacity (i.e. "1,000" instead of "1,024") leading to the difference, and phone manufacturers actually do give you the "full" (minus the space caveat) storage, it's just that the OS is also loaded into some of it.

So I get what you're saying, I'm just being pedantic, but these examples are not ideal.

Right. It's hard to tell exactly, because my info about the battery capacity comes from layman-worded articles, but it sounded like the given capacities(including the 77kWh for the Model S 85) were just usable capacities, and that the experimenter didn't have a way to measure the true theoretical capacity of the full battery pack. If I didn't misunderstand that, then it would seem to fall under a similar situation as the phone manufacturer whose 32GB phone has 20GB of usable space.

Or maybe the conversion to lay-speak missed some nuance and I'm totally wrong.
 
This may be slightly off topic, but I'm actually kind of curious on this. I bought a 60 and don't recall seeing anywhere a specification that stated that that number indicated the exact battery capacity in kWh. Is there such a specification anywhere in the purchase agreement?
My sales paperwork says "85kWh"
The manual states that a P85+ contains a battery with an 85kWh capacity.

Also, to address the point earlier, I could be wrong but I don't think that giving an opinion on the legality a given action would be considered grounds for libel either. For example, if I made the claim that, say: "Forcibly keeping a dog inside your house is illegal", I can't imagine that that becomes grounds for a libel suit by dog owners everywhere. Even if we make it specific and I publicly tell a dog owner that I think they're breaking the law by keeping their dog in their house, that still sounds dubious as the grounds for such a suit.
Except that people have gone far beyond saying "it's illegal" (despite it clearly not being so) and are instead specifically calling it theft, and implying that the person is a thief for doing so. It's in the conflating of their dislike for the person with the idea that the person is committing a crime that they are not actually committing that libel would come in.

But that's ok, I won't accuse them of libel if they don't accuse me of other illegal acts (that they can't find laws to support)
 
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Interesting. I'll be curious to see how this shapes up. I imagine Tesla would take a similar route to any claims against them for the 85's in this case as, for example, hard drive manufacturers do. We all know that our 1TB harddrives will only have on the order of 900GB of usable space. That goes double for, say, 32GB phones that only have ~20GB available after the formatting and OS take their share.
Except that this isn't even about "useable" space, this is pure cell capacity. It's well known that the 85s contain 77kWh packs, that are limited to even less to avoid damage from over or under charging (this isn't true of other pack sizes that Tesla offers where the pack size is close to accurate before the parts used to prevent damage are taken in to account)
So this is your harddrive manufacturer selling you a 1TB drive but only giving you a 900GB hard drive, and then you format it and you only have 850GB useable. I wouldn't blame them for the 900-850 part, but I'd sure blame them for shortchanging me from 1TB-900GB.
 
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People will always justify their actions by claiming there is no law against it. Just because there's no law in China about ripping off intellectual property, it's still immoral and unethical. Just like I don't need religion to do the right thing, I don't need laws either -- even though there are laws.
There's actually no law against it in any country in the world that we are aware of... so it's not just "technically legal in china" it's legal EVERYWHERE.

As for "I don't needs laws"... that explains a LOT about your mindset. You don't care what the law says, you know that you, and you alone, are the arbiter of what is right and wrong in this world. I hate to break it to you, but you don't live on a planet of just you. The rest of the world works under the rule of law, which is how society has decided to codify what is "right" and "wrong".

Stop being so judgmental of others, and let people do what they think is right if it doesn't break any laws and doesn't personally harm you.
 
Right. It's hard to tell exactly, because my info about the battery capacity comes from layman-worded articles, but it sounded like the given capacities(including the 77kWh for the Model S 85) were just usable capacities, and that the experimenter didn't have a way to measure the true theoretical capacity of the full battery pack. If I didn't misunderstand that, then it would seem to fall under a similar situation as the phone manufacturer whose 32GB phone has 20GB of usable space.

Or maybe the conversion to lay-speak missed some nuance and I'm totally wrong.
They don't have a way to fully measure it, but they certainly found enough to prove that it's nowhere near the situation that phone manufacturers are in, there's definitely missing kWh from the 85 packs, you might be able to argue whether it's 76 or 78 kWh, but there's absolute proof that it isn't 85.
 
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They don't have a way to fully measure it, but they certainly found enough to prove that it's nowhere near the situation that phone manufacturers are in, there's definitely missing kWh from the 85 packs, you might be able to argue whether it's 76 or 78 kWh, but there's absolute proof that it isn't 85.

That sounds odd to me, but without getting into the weeds of the experiment, I'd risk committing a line-drawing fallacy in arguing against it, so I'll let it go.
 
They don't have a way to fully measure it, but they certainly found enough to prove that it's nowhere near the situation that phone manufacturers are in, there's definitely missing kWh from the 85 packs, you might be able to argue whether it's 76 or 78 kWh, but there's absolute proof that it isn't 85.
BTW: BMW is honest with customers - they clearly state what capacity is usable and what is reserved. Funny thing - state credits (where they depend on battery capacity) calculated from whole capacity but manufacturer markets really usable capacity.
P.S.: BMW disappointed me later when they decided to market refreshed i3 as a 94Ah model. It is obvious marketing and confuses people. Previously it was like ~18kWh and now it is 94Ah. It sounds like a hell of an improvement, right? Unless it isn't - "Ah" says nothing about battery capacity without saying what voltage is. So in reality it went from ~22kWh (full) to 33kWh (full). But "94" sounds way better than "33", so why not? It even sounds better than Tesla S75 or S90. Meh...
 
In light of the legal claims, I'd appreciate it if all parties could refrain from accusing people of illegal actions until they can find such a law.

And I'd like you to stop making the point that hacking the software to STEAL, yes I said STEAL, things you didn't pay for is perfectly acceptable to do. I doubt either of us is going to get what they want...

I really don't see how some of you think this is so complicated... You bought a car with X features/functionality, that's the car you bought. Hacking the software to enable things you didn't pay for is theft, it just simply is. Just because you can't point to a specific law/statute that says otherwise doesn't make it any more or less of a theft. The only difference is without the "law" you can't be punished for it but again, you still took something that wasn't yours. If you're morally acceptable to that reality then okay, fine, be morally bankrupt if you wish but in the end you have to live with your decisions.

Jeff
 
And I'd like you to stop making the point that hacking the software to STEAL, yes I said STEAL, things you didn't pay for is perfectly acceptable to do. I doubt either of us is going to get what they want...

I really don't see how some of you think this is so complicated... You bought a car with X features/functionality, that's the car you bought. Hacking the software to enable things you didn't pay for is theft, it just simply is. Just because you can't point to a specific law/statute that says otherwise doesn't make it any more or less of a theft. The only difference is without the "law" you can't be punished for it but again, you still took something that wasn't yours. If you're morally acceptable to that reality then okay, fine, be morally bankrupt if you wish but in the end you have to live with your decisions.

Jeff

So in your mind is it illegal to remove the autopilot hardware and sell it; since technically you did not "pay" for it? Or must it always be on the vehicle to not constitute theft?

What about swapping in an 85 kwh battery and selling the 60/75kwh pack?
 
So in your mind is it illegal to remove the autopilot hardware and sell it; since technically you did not pay for it? Or must it always be on the vehicle to not constitute theft?

Interesting hypothetical question... I would say that if you paid for the feature in the software, then per Tesla's own explanation of the hardware, you could do with it whatever you wanted. If you didn't pay for the feature in the software then you technically, again assuming Tesla is accurate in their prior statements, didn't pay for the hardware and thus it's not your's to resell...

That one again, it's a difficult one for sure but that's where I'd draw the line...

Jeff
 
Stop being so judgmental of others, and let people do what they think is right if it doesn't break any laws and doesn't personally harm you.

Never.

It doesn't personally harm me when people think it is right, and it doesn't break any laws in some countries to do this, but I will speak out against it to my dying breath.

As for "I don't needs laws"... that explains a LOT about your mindset. You don't care what the law says, you know that you, and you alone, are the arbiter of what is right and wrong in this world.

I never said that I don't care what the law says -- but if the law is immoral, like legalizing slavery or female genital mutilation, then you are right, I don't give a rat's ass what the law says.

To me, it says a lot about your mindset that you need laws to keep you morally grounded, and that you will not be the arbiter of what is right or wrong, but will blindly follow the law.

Oh, and by the way, it is illegal buy a 60 battery and unlock it to a 75. I argued over and over on the satellite forums about it being in illegal in Canada to get US satellite signals (that you can't even buy in Canada) and I lost at both lower court levels then won on appeal to Supreme Court of Canada. So it was a long road. The wheels of justice move slowly.

But mark my words... :)
 
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I really don't see how some of you think this is so complicated... You bought a car with X features/functionality, that's the car you bought. Hacking the software to enable things you didn't pay for is theft, it just simply is.

And that's exactly how the courts will see it. It's actually very simple. Judges are difficult to fool.

Woah, be careful with that. That logic would support Microsoft being owed royalties on any 3rd party software of any kind that runs on Windows computers. And require that, say, Dell must be paid for any software an end user wants to install on one of their computers.

I can see the Judge's eyes roll already!
 
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so I guess overclocking a processor could also potentially be theft? Since you did not pay for that extra performance?

Seriously? You can't see the difference? I doubt you will find any good lawyer to make that argument in your defence, which is the real issue. Sure, you can pay lawyers to argue almost anything but the good ones want to win, and not argue nonsense.

Which brings us to the real issue... it's not the nuanced legal arguments but the fact that Tesla likely won't sit on its hands and allow unlocking without taking action. If that's a risk you're willing to take, go for it.

I'll be making the popcorn.
 
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