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Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

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Apparently I can't post 81 pages of legalese in this thread, but go actually read the DMCA exemption that specifically allows hacking your car.
https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf

The DMCA categorically doesn't apply.

It's not that I'm not reading. I am. This is 100% legal in every jurisdiction I'm aware of, and nobody has yet provided any law that says otherwise.
 
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It's a good thing the law doesn't revolve around your personal opinion. But if you think it's illegal. Please post the actual law that it violates (note, already covered and proven irrelevant are: DMCA, Copyright law, Laws against theft, laws against hacking, laws against murder, laws requiring modifications to be approved by the NHTSA, so you'll have to find something else.)

They good thing about a personal opinion is that you're right 100% of the time. I don't care what you do with your car.

Just don't whine if Tesla refuses to service your car or you run into issues when you try and sell your car because you've hacked it up.

Or don't be surprised if Tesla doesn't want to sell you a car. I know I would fire you as a client.
 
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Unlocking the software (not using the proprietary Tesla mechanism) would technically have to comply with various FMVSS regulations set by NHTSA. The hacker/unlocker could be classified as the "manufacturer" of the hack (which would be classified as replacement vehicle equipment- i.e. the hack supplants FMVSS compliant proprietary Tesla code/functions) and thus must comply with 49 U.S.C. § 30118.

So unless this code has been hardened and there is a paper trail to show that it is compliant; NHTSA could restrict the use of this hack.

OTOH if the hack is based on proprietary Tesla IP (the manner in which they unlock key features) then that would be straight theft.
Well the NHTSA and FMVSS disagree with you, but then of course facts haven't been something you've cared about so far, so why start now.

People modify their cars in their garage all the time, at this very moment there are likely many thousands of people doing so all over the world. None of them are suddenly "manufacturers", and none are subject to NHTSA of FMVSS. They *may* be subject to state laws on road safety, but those only cover the most superficial of things (like having headlights and such) and would never stoop at low as you seem to imply.

This isn't "code that you install" and there's no theft.

Let's try a physical world example of exactly what this is. There's a toggle switch under the hood labelled "60kWh" on one side, and "75kWh" on the other side, when you get the vehicle there's a piece of tape over it so that if you throw the switch the manufacturer will know. There's nothing anywhere saying not to throw the switch, there's no need to copy anything, modify anything (except the position of the switch), or do anything else to the vehicle. This is what we have.

Nobody in their right mind would ever think that flipping this switch would magically require an NHTSA investigation, and the NHTSA would laugh at you for suggesting it. Nobody in their right mind would call this "copying" so trying to bring a copyright claim would have you laughed out of court. The DMCA would cover moving the piece of (digital) tape, but specifically says that it's ok to do so if it's on a vehicle, so again, no traction there. There is no law that prevents this.

You are grasping at straws trying to make people you don't like sound like criminals when they've done nothing wrong. This is a witch hunt and is despicable behaviour.
 
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They good thing about a personal opinion is that you're right 100% of the time. I don't care what you do with your car.
funny, you spend a lot of time and effort telling me what I should and shouldn't do for someone who doesn't care.

Just don't whine if Tesla refuses to service your car
Oh, I wouldn't wine, I'll sue them for breach of contract, as well as for breaking laws regarding warranties and false advertising. Of course they know that, so they wouldn't likely risk it (though Tesla does lots of slimy stuff all the time, so I wouldn't put it past them to do this, but I do know how it would end)

or you run into issues when you try and sell your car because you've hacked it up.
That's the nice thing about software, it's just as easy to put it back to factory condition as it was to change it in the first place. I can have the car back to factory state in under 10 minutes. There'd be no trouble selling it (it may actually be a selling feature, Not many Tesla's still have a working Autopilot implementation, most have been neutered)

Or don't be surprised if Tesla doesn't want to sell you a car. I know I would fire you as a client.
There's a laugh... like I'd ever give that slimy company another penny! I make it a habit of dealing with companies who want my business and treat me as a partner, not as the enemy. I'll never make the mistake of buying another Tesla again that's for sure.
 
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funny, you spend a lot of time and effort telling me what I should and shouldn't do for someone who doesn't care.


Oh, I wouldn't wine, I'll sue them for breach of contract, as well as for breaking laws regarding warranties and false advertising. Of course they know that, so they wouldn't likely risk it (though Tesla does lots of slimy stuff all the time, so I wouldn't put it past them to do this, but I do know how it would end)


That's the nice thing about software, it's just as easy to put it back to factory condition as it was to change it in the first place. I can have the car back to factory state in under 10 minutes. There'd be no trouble selling it (it may actually be a selling feature, Not many Tesla's still have a working Autopilot implementation, most have been neutered)


There's a laugh... like I'd ever give that slimy company another penny! I make it a habit of dealing with companies who want my business and treat me as a partner, not as the enemy. I'll never make the mistake of buying another Tesla again that's for sure.
Have fun buddy.
 
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Well the NHTSA and FMVSS disagree with you, but then of course facts haven't been something you've cared about so far, so why start now.

People modify their cars in their garage all the time, at this very moment there are likely many thousands of people doing so all over the world. None of them are suddenly "manufacturers", and none are subject to NHTSA of FMVSS. They *may* be subject to state laws on road safety, but those only cover the most superficial of things (like having headlights and such) and would never stoop at low as you seem to imply.

Replacing safety related parts (especially things that deal with the CAN messaging of the vehicle) with aftermarket parts is subject to the approval of NHTSA/FMVSS, this is basic. If someone manufactures part that can affect the safety of the vehicle NHTSA can lawfully investigate (via Special Order). We have done several swaps of Tesla drivetrains in other vehicles. I personally deal with NHTSA on a monthly basis. The requirements are clear.

@powersourcetech • Instagram photos and videos

This isn't "code that you install" and there's no theft.
It is "code" all modern vehicles communicate using CAN. These messages are vehicle specific and if these messages are modified this is definitely a FMVSS/NHTSA issue since it effects the operation of the vehicle
Let's try a physical world example of exactly what this is. There's a toggle switch under the hood labelled "60kWh" on one side, and "75kWh" on the other side, when you get the vehicle there's a piece of tape over it so that if you throw the switch the manufacturer will know. There's nothing anywhere saying not to throw the switch, there's no need to copy anything, modify anything (except the position of the switch), or do anything else to the vehicle. This is what we have.
The physical switch will affect the messaging that occurs on the vehicle bus, anything wired in that effects this messaging and that modifies these messages could effect the safety of the vehicle.
Nobody in their right mind would ever think that flipping this switch would magically require an NHTSA investigation, and the NHTSA would laugh at you for suggesting it. Nobody in their right mind would call this "copying" so trying to bring a copyright claim would have you laughed out of court. The DMCA would cover moving the piece of (digital) tape, but specifically says that it's ok to do so if it's on a vehicle, so again, no traction there. There is no law that prevents this.

You are grasping at straws trying to make people you don't like sound like criminals when they've done nothing wrong. This is a witch hunt and is despicable behaviour.

Flipping a switch is not what you think it means, in modern vehicles "flipping a switch" is done by software.

What you are confusing is that NHTSA could investigate such a modification if they are tipped off (i.e by Tesla) and it is up to the individual that created the hack to show that it conforms to FMVSS standards. Sure, they could get away by no one knowing; but the question here is legality and NHTSA has every right to ensure that the hack does not affect the safety and operation of the vehicle.
 
Replacing safety related parts (especially things that deal with the CAN messaging of the vehicle) with aftermarket parts is subject to the approval of NHTSA/FMVSS, this is basic. If someone manufactures part that can affect the safety of the vehicle NHTSA can lawfully investigate (via Special Order). We have done several swaps of Tesla drivetrains in other vehicles. I personally deal with NHTSA on a monthly basis. The requirements are clear.
Clear yes, Also completely irrelevant as nobody is talking about a company swapping safety related stuff, or even installing any aftermarket parts. We're talking about toggling a software setting that Tesla left in there. Completely different.
Also you go tell the NHTSA to crack down on the millions (yes, millions) of people who modify their cars in their garage at home without NHTSA approval... see how that goes for you.

Flipping a switch is not what you think it means, in modern vehicles "flipping a switch" is done by software.
Which is exactly what I was saying.

What a laugh, you think that the NHTSA has nothing better to do? They've never once in their entire history gone after anyone who has modified their own personal vehicle, let alone one who only toggled a manufacturer supplied setting.

If they aren't willing to chase after people who cut their chasis in half in their garage and weld it together without even the knowledge from a high school shop class, they sure aren't going to go after someone who opened up a setting dialog on the car and clicked "100% of the battery please"

I know you are absolutely DESPERATE to feel vindicated and find a way that someone will punish me for my evil deeds, but grasping at straws doesn't even begin to describe your current approach.
 
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Clear yes, Also completely irrelevant as nobody is talking about a company swapping safety related stuff, or even installing any aftermarket parts. We're talking about toggling a software setting that Tesla left in there. Completely different.
Also you go tell the NHTSA to crack down on the millions (yes, millions) of people who modify their cars in their garage at home without NHTSA approval... see how that goes for you.
Personally I could care less what people do to their own cars, but there are laws in place. If someone uses non DOT headlights they are risking getting a ticket. You are mixing up what is lawful and what you can get away with. Getting away with something does not mean lawful.

Which is exactly what I was saying.

What a laugh, you think that the NHTSA has nothing better to do? They've never once in their entire history gone after anyone who has modified their own personal vehicle, let alone one who only toggled a manufacturer supplied setting.

If they aren't willing to chase after people who cut their chasis in half in their garage and weld it together without even the knowledge from a high school shop class, they sure aren't going to go after someone who opened up a setting dialog on the car and clicked "100% of the battery please"
You are mixing up what is lawful and what you can get away with. Getting away with something does not mean lawful. Also it is not as simple as toggling on a setting to unlock AP and the battery.
 
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You are mixing up what is lawful and what you can get away with. Getting away with something does not mean lawful.
No, I'm not mixing it up at all. It is BOTH perfectly legal, AND you'll get away with it.

You on the other hand are mixing up "I personally disagree with you" and "it's illegal and you'll be punished", you see these 2 things are VERY different, and just because you hate me doesn't mean I'm going to burn in a lake of fire.

As for the "I could care less", that's somewhat transparent coming from someone so determined to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

Also it is not as simple as toggling on a setting to unlock AP and the battery.
And this proves that you have no clue what you are talking about. It's actually EXACTLY that simple. it's a toggle right there in the developer menu on the 17" screen. In fact, if you go far enough back in this thread someone even posted a screenshot of it.
 
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This is how laws work, nothing is just "illegal" without a law. If you think something is illegal, it must violate a law, find that law and I'll either explain why it doesn't apply, or admit that you are right.

Okay, let's break this one down. I don't think @green1 understands how the law works so I will set it out. I mean no disrespect to him. I actually quite like him. While we go hard at each other, I would enjoy to meet him and debate him over a beer or two. I respect someone with strong convictions like him. They make life so much more interesting. I know he is not immoral or unethical. He's just misguided in his views... ;)

So let's break down the issue at hand. It's very simple:

The issue:

Someone has a 60 battery, unlocks it so it's a 75 without paying Tesla.

The "crime":

The unlocking gives rise to two "causes of action" at law as follows:

1. Criminal - must be pursued by the State/Province -- not by an individual -- the State/Province must set out the legislation (criminal or quasi-criminal) that is alleged to have been breached.
Test at law: Beyond a reasonable doubt.
No issue here. While Tesla will lobby for criminal charges, in my view the State/Province will say it is a civil matter.

2. Civil - Tesla can file a lawsuit and the State/Province MUST accept the lawsuit for filing unless there is a prohibition against Tesla which requires Tesla to seek leave of the Court before filing a legal action. This is extremely rare but there are individuals who abuse the court system and file numerous frivolous lawsuits. Those individuals must seek leave before filing a lawsuit. This does not apply to Tesla.

No one at the Court Registries vets legal actions. Do NOT believe what @green1 says. You do not need any legislation at all to file a lawsuit! If you have a 60 battery and unlock it to a 75 Tesla does NOT need to cite any legislation to sue you. In fact, despite what @green1 keeps harping about, many civil suits do not cite legislation at all. If you take my wallet out of my pocket, I can sue you civilly and there is no legislation that applies between you and me in that scenario. The State/Province will cite the Criminal Code, but between you and me, it is common law. You owe me a duty not to steal my stuff. I don't need to tell the Judge the law -- only the FACTS. And the same applies to Tesla. Moreover, the test is really easy:

Civil Test = Balance of Probabilities or More Likely than Not -- i.e. 50% plus..000000000000000000000000000001 is enough to meet the test.

That's it... just tilt those scales of justice ever so slightly and you win in civil court.

But again, it's not about winning and losing.

It's all about the cost to defend yourself.

Defending yourself in a civil suit is not cheap and Tesla need not state any law. Don't believe what @green1 is telling you. It's very expensive to defend yourself in a civil suit. Plus, Tesla will lobby for criminal charges, and if those stick, and you live in Canada, you won't be driving your Tesla down south without a criminal waiver.

So even if you have no morals or ethics, it's still not worth it.

Mark my words. Tesla will not sit on their hands and allow it.
 
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I posted this on the previous page, but since nobody participated, I'd try one more time because I'm really curious about answers to the 3 questions at the end.

I've been following this thread from the beginning and was curious if this problem can be formulated a different way. How about this:
  • You buy a house and the living room has two light fixtures - one is 60 watts and another 15 watts

  • The price for the house with 60 watts fixture is $X and you can upgrade to enable the second fixture for certain amount of money.

  • The switch for the 15 watts fixture is removed and replaced with a blank cover plate. Once you pay the upgrade fee to the builder - they send a tech to remove the blank plate and install an actual switch so you can use the 15 watts light fixture.
So, what "illegal" crowd is saying that it is "illegal" (forget about morality for a sec) for me to replace the blank plate with an actual switch (the same type switch the builder would use) to activate that 15 watts fixture. Is that correct? If illegal, why?

Would it be stealing? Stealing what, exactly?

Would that self-modification be immoral?
 
Also still waiting for the thread reference where you hacked your car. Can you point me to it please?
Your post right after mine makes it appear that your question is directed at me, but, IIRC, you are aware that it is @green1 who hacked his car. Also, didn't @green1 already reply to you? Yes, he did

upload_2017-3-21_21-13-16.png



Now, if you are asking @green1 to point you to the thread in which he hacked his car, it's in the same thread about nags: My adventures in gaining control of my car
 
Your post right after mine makes it appear that your question is directed at me, but, IIRC, you are aware that it is @green1 who hacked his car. Also, didn't @green1 already reply to you? Yes, he did

View attachment 219233


Now, if you are asking @green1 to point you to the thread in which he hacked his car, it's in the same thread about nags: My adventures in gaining control of my car

Not replying to you. Else I would have quoted you.

Buried on page 8 is a picture of the IC with Factory Mode. Literally anyone can get that with an ethernet cord, a screw driver, and a little google-fu. I want to know if he actually rooted his car, since this discussion has gone off the rails into unlocking batteries and flashing firmwares and other root related items... are we just stoking the fire for fun? Or has @green1 actually rooted his car for the sake of the argument's relevance and is now defending it.
 
Not replying to you. Else I would have quoted you.

Buried on page 8 is a picture of the IC with Factory Mode. Literally anyone can get that with an ethernet cord, a screw driver, and a little google-fu. I want to know if he actually rooted his car, since this discussion has gone off the rails into unlocking batteries and flashing firmwares and other root related items... are we just stoking the fire for fun? Or has @green1 actually rooted his car for the sake of the argument's relevance and is now defending it.
As far as I remember there was no mention of root in green1's thread, or maybe there was, damn, I forgot. Sorry.

But, "an ethernet cord, a screw driver, and a little google-fu" is what hacking is, isn't ;)
 
Apparently I can't post 81 pages of legalese in this thread, but go actually read the DMCA exemption that specifically allows hacking your car.
https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/fedreg-publicinspectionFR.pdf

The DMCA categorically doesn't apply.

It's not that I'm not reading. I am. This is 100% legal in every jurisdiction I'm aware of, and nobody has yet provided any law that says otherwise.
Not seeing where it doesn't apply. Here is the actual exemption on page 43:
"Computer programs that are contained in and control the functioning of a motorized land vehicle such as a personal automobile, commercial motor vehicle or mechanized agricultural vehicle, except for computer programs primarily designed for the control of telematics or entertainment systems for such vehicle, when circumvention is a necessary step undertaken by the authorized owner of the vehicle to allow the diagnosis, repair or lawful modification of a vehicle function; and where such circumvention does not constitute a violation of applicable law, including without limitation regulations promulgated by the Department of Transportation or the Environmental Protection Agency; and provided, however, that such circumvention is initiated no earlier than 12 months after the effective date of this regulation."

First thing that sticks out is that this exemption does not apply to telematics (navigation being the most obvious example, but autopilot uses almost every aspect of telematics).

Moving on: the suggested changes are obviously not to allow diagnosis or repair, so it falls on what that exemption means by "to allow ... lawful modification of a vehicle function".

Page 40 clarifies:
"Proponents explained that circumvention of TPMs protecting copyrighted computer programs in ECUs may be necessary to make noninfringing uses of those programs to diagnose and repair automobiles and agricultural equipment, and to make modifications, such as enhancing a vehicle’s suspension or installing a gear with a different radius. They assert that vehicle owners are entitled to use the computer programs in ECUs to diagnose, repair or modify vehicles as a matter of fair use, or under section 117."

So this exemption covers tampering of the ECU in order to enable other modifications (like ECU adjustments to account for a custom suspension or different gear ratio). The main purpose is to allow lawful fair use. I don't see how unlocking paid features falls under this. That's my analysis, again with the huge caveut of IANAL.

Second exemption:
"(i) Computer programs, where the circumvention is undertaken on a lawfully acquired device or machine on which the computer program operates solely for the purpose of good-faith security research and does not violate any applicable law, including without limitation the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986, as amended and codified in title 18, United States Code; and provided, however, that, except as to voting machines, such circumvention is initiated no earlier than 12 months after the effective date of this regulation, and the device or machine is one of the following:
(A) A device or machine primarily designed for use by individual consumers (including voting machines);
(B) A motorized land vehicle; or
(C) A medical device designed for whole or partial implantation in patients or a corresponding personal monitoring system, that is not and will not be used by patients or for patient care.
(ii) For purposes of this exemption, “good-faith security research” means accessing a computer program solely for purposes of goodfaith testing, investigation and/or correction of a security flaw or vulnerability, where such activity is carried out in a controlled environment designed to avoid any harm to individuals or the public, and where the information derived from the activity is used primarily to promote the security or safety of the class of devices or machines on which the computer program operates, or those who use such devices or machines, and is not used or maintained in a manner that facilitates copyright infringement."
The changes discussed is not for good-faith security research, so this exemption does not apply in this case.
 
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I posted this on the previous page, but since nobody participated, I'd try one more time because I'm really curious about answers to the 3 questions at the end.

I've been following this thread from the beginning and was curious if this problem can be formulated a different way. How about this:
  • You buy a house and the living room has two light fixtures - one is 60 watts and another 15 watts

  • The price for the house with 60 watts fixture is $X and you can upgrade to enable the second fixture for certain amount of money.

  • The switch for the 15 watts fixture is removed and replaced with a blank cover plate. Once you pay the upgrade fee to the builder - they send a tech to remove the blank plate and install an actual switch so you can use the 15 watts light fixture.
So, what "illegal" crowd is saying that it is "illegal" (forget about morality for a sec) for me to replace the blank plate with an actual switch (the same type switch the builder would use) to activate that 15 watts fixture. Is that correct? If illegal, why?

Would it be stealing? Stealing what, exactly?

Would that self-modification be immoral?
This analogy doesn't seem like a good fit. For one it does not involve any software, which is different than hardware given there is almost no marginal cost to include the code for extra features, locked using software, but nevertheless representing a significant amount of value. And it does not involve any circumventing of security features (blank cover plates are just standard fixture covers, which are designed explicitly to allow for easy replacement with a switch).

The analogy you are suggesting is closer to the other situation suggested, which is using the same hardware as Tesla, but design completely new custom software to use it. I don't think anyone sees that immoral or illegal (it is similar to ripping out the parts of the vehicle and using it in other projects).
 
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But again, it's not about winning and losing.

It's all about the cost to defend yourself.

Defending yourself in a civil suit is not cheap and Tesla need not state any law. Don't believe what @green1 is telling you. It's very expensive to defend yourself in a civil suit. Plus, Tesla will lobby for criminal charges, and if those stick, and you live in Canada, you won't be driving your Tesla down south without a criminal waiver.

So even if you have no morals or ethics, it's still not worth it.
One more consideration (at least in the US), is that these actions (criminal or civil) are PUBLIC. Whether the hacker thinks it's illegal or not, the press generated by hacking your car to avoid paying the upgrade fee will show your true colors to current employers, and more importantly future employers who google you when doing their due dilligence. I can tell you that in choosing between job candidates, I'm definitely not choosing the guy that got sued by Tesla for hacking his car to avoid paying for the upgrade - whether Tesla prevailed or not.